England has the worst crime rate in the world!

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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If the one Finn I know (a BASE jumper who eats light bulbs for fun) is any example, then Finland really is the world's largest den of corruption and debauchery.

How can Crazy Thomas pass this up? I mean, we have a judgemental, assumptive, stupid argument going on here,

Damn! And here I assumed Tom's post was spiced up with a healthy dose of sarcasm...

[Skyrad 0]

We've pretty much had a handgun ban here for years, as for rifles they make you jump through hoops to hold a licence for one of those shotguns are easier to get but even they have stringent laws applied to them. The main difference over here is that the vast majority of the population want firearms banned. As for those crime figures, as someone living in London they come as no suprise at all. British youth has become undisciplined, larger swilling and moronic. Of course there are exceptions but in general they're a disgrace to the nation.
However having lived in SA as well, I think the only reasons the British figures are higher is because South Africans don't bother reporting crime to the police anymore. Also the murder rate is way higher in SA. That said its a beautiful country well worth the flight.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[happythoughts 0]

I would say that there is a large difference between the number of crime reports and the number of follow-ups.

In the US, government is kind of an industry. People who are sargeants want to be captains. Career advancement. How do they build the empire? By building up the statistics to support a larger budget. Where I live, there wasn't much of a police dept. Not much crime really. The police started a speed trap (read revenue enhancement). They caught the wrong person finally and that stopped. They started answering every little noise ordinance call with 8 cars. "We need more personnel to combat a 30% rise in calls." Not crimes, calls. Personnel to answer the calls.

Over-reporting everything is a career building technique for urban bureaucrats. In the US, I would think that the business of crime would make it an advantage to document everything.

[CrazyThomas 0]

Very well said. And look at the Homeland Security Bill. It is thought by most to protect us, but I feel it is to strip away our constitutional rights. They can't do it legally yet, but now they can. Read the post about parallel legal system. This shit is happening. Wait until they have a terrorist jump out of a plane with a bomb and kill people. Then, NO MORE SKYDIVING, because it is purely a terrorist activity.
Shit, there goes my paranoia again.
Oops, I here the government knocking on my door. Time for me to go back to jail, where they can silence me.
Peace,
Thomas

[jfields 0]

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I didn't post this to start that debate up again, since some people refuse to believe hard data

Exactly!

Too bad we are talking about each other.

[Mindcake 0]

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According to the FBI web site, homicide is the only crime that is almost always reported and therefore makes a good basis for comparison. Unfortunately the US doesn't look so good in this category.

My point exactly... I will take gettin mugged any day over gettin killed....people with guns kill. Interesting that someone pointed out that Columbia has roughly 9x the murder rate that the U.S. does...whats interesting is we give them millions in aid and then they in turn buy american guns and other U.S. made weapons with the money we gave them, in fact it is a pre-requsite of getting the aid that they must spend this money on weapons and they must come from U.S.companys......hmmm no politics here

Guns kill...no guns=less dead people

Jim

Don´t belive the hype

[AggieDave 6]

Dude, do a quick search about guns/gun control in the forums. You'll find every angle argued back and forth with no end. Basically a lot of people disagree with you and have data to back it up, and a lot of people agree with you and have data to back it up.

So imagine a horse, in a field, but its dead and laying on its back legs up. Now imagine a line of people standing around kicking it...exactly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 26]

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Guns kill...no guns=less dead people

Parachutes kill...no parachutes=less dead people

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[outofit 0]

it is because there cops carry sticks and not guns.

It is better to be dead and cool than alive and uncool!

[kmcguffee 0]

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Interesting that someone pointed out that Columbia has roughly 9x the murder rate that the U.S. does...whats interesting is we give them millions in aid and then they in turn buy american guns and other U.S. made weapons with the money we gave them

Damn, is the US to blame for everything that is wrong in the world? Maybe we should just dissolve the US and solve the world's problems. I think I've read that the US is to blame for everything from terrorism to AIDs to global warming on these forums.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[bill2 0]

if you pull a gun on your assialant your chances of not living through the expierence more than double.
____________________________

Where did you hear this one? The justice department (under Janet Reno no less!!) estimated that guns are used 750,00 - 1,500,000 times a year to prevent crime. 99 % of the time the gun is not used, only displayed. Read "More guns, less crime" by John Lott who goes into great depth in this issue. Even people who are for strong gun control (read banning guns) such as CA Sen Diane Feinstine have a concealed carry permit to protect themselves. And here in the Bay area in CA that is almost impossible to get. Unless you're very well connected and rich.

[Mindcake 0]

Well yes in many ways we in the US are responsible for a lot of bad things that happen in the world..our candy companies keep many African people impovrished by not paying a fair price for coco beans(chocolate) so that the price of coco stays low...this same thing is happening in South America where our coffee companies do the same with coffee farmers...It's not the US that is the problem but rather a few evil/short sited individuals and a American public that is largely un-informed. I really feel that most people would be sick if they knew what many American companies do, but the US as a whole is not the problem just a few bad apples. We still have the best thing going, and I would still fight to protect it.


I will leave the horse dead in the pasture

Jim

Don´t belive the hype

[Mindcake 0]

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Guns kill...no guns=less dead people

Parachutes kill...no parachutes=less dead people

you make a strong point

Don´t belive the hype

[kmcguffee 0]

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if you pull a gun on your assialant your chances of not living through the expierence more than double.

I think that depends on your training. There are times to pull a gun on an assailant and times to let him do what he wants to do. Untrained people rely too much on TV for their experience. People do not immediately die or become incapacitated from gunshots in the real world. Most of the time they do not even realize they are hit until after the action. The only exception is a brain stem shot which will drop them almost immediately but is extremely hard to do, especially in a stressfull situation. If someone has a weapon aimed at you, you are not going to draw your weapon and get enough shots off to incapacitate him before he shoots you.

Therefore, like always, the statistics don't tell the whole story.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

While I believe the US is partly responsible for a lot of bad things, I also believe that a lot of people and countries aren't willing to accept responsibility for their own problems. The US is a convenient target to blame and gets the pressure off of their government to make things better. If I blamed all of my problems and failures on someone else it would surely make me feel better. It just wouldn't get me very far in life.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Gawain 0]

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Guns kill...no guns=less dead people

Parachutes kill...no parachutes=less dead people

you make a strong point

Didn't Australias crime rate shoot through the roof after they enacted a stricter gun law?

If you outlaw guns, then outlaws will have them. It won't stop them from getting them.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rushmc 23]

I have to disagree. I read a news report that told of the British police raiding a member of their Parliament to confiscate an air rifle and shot gun after he denounce British gun control policies. Ain't that nuts!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Some report, that by a 5 to 1 margin in the US, more crimes are stopped by those who have guns than than crimes committed by those who have guns.

I do believe, however, that one must find out who is putting out the numbers or who is paying for the report or survey and put that bias against those numbers.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AggieDave 6]

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I think that depends on your training

I agree. I've spent a decent amount of money getting some of the best training I can get as a civilian in tactical pistol. I've also spent over 10,000rds in the past 2 years practicing and training with my weapon. No, that's not just punching holes in paper, thats doing scenerio training with numatic steel, stress training with computerized moving targets (that will run at you, etc).

Why have I done this? All this training is because when I was 16 I had some fucker pull a gun on me on the highway! You're perspective about personal protection can drastically change when you're looking at the wrong end of a barrel.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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Why have I done this? All this training is because when I was 16 I had some fucker pull a gun on me on the highway! You're perspective about personal protection can drastically change when you're looking at the wrong end of a barrel.

Sorry to hear that, Dave. I'm glad you are here to talk about it.

From there, what to do becomes a philosophical issue. That is where we fundamentally diverge.

The two contrasting paths are:
1) Become better armed and better trained, so that you can outfight your opponent.
2) Refute the culture of violence, by personal action, and maybe even teach others why it isn't the answer.

The first scenario leads to escalation, as the only safety is through absolute supremacy. It is an arms race, between individuals instead of a between nations. I see it as both financially and morally bankrupting the participants.

The second scenario is much more difficult. In my opinion, it requires more courage. Rather than walking among armed violent masses while being prepared to kill, it requires walking among them prepared to trust.

I'm not talking about any Judeo-Christian religious slant, or about forgiveness. I'm just looking at the fundamental desire to live in a peaceful, prosperous world. It begins one person at a time. I'm nowhere near the first, nor do I have any wish to be famous. But by walking in the footsteps of people like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Ghandi, I can set an example for my child. There will be no violence welcome in my home, nor will I promote it when I walk among strangers.

On a more pragmatic note, call me cynical, but I see the "safety" gained by arming myself as being so incredibly minute that the effort required is ridiculously out of proportion with the benefit. I will not pay for an illusion of safety at the expense of things with real benefit. I will never prioritize the cost of a weapon or firearm training higher than something like taking my daughter to the beach or taking my wife out for our anniversary. Those actions have tangible results immediately. The benefits from them are no illusion.

(I'm not trying to stir up the previous debate, but an interesting tangent from it is why we are the way we are.)

[AggieDave 6]

You're being philisophical, I'll continue that a bit. Do you study history? Have you studied ancient history? Has their ever been a wholly peaceful culture? No. There are some that were labeled as "peaceful" because of their supposed beliefs, but anthropologists and historians still find evidence of violonce in their culture. Viloence is not an American phenomenon, it is something that is ingrained in the human brain. Cain killed Abel, etc. Instead of holding my hands and being peaceful, hoping everyone around me will do the same and not hurt me; I choose to be the best I can be at protecting myself. Thus, 4 years of Tae Kwon Do later, 10,000rds of ammo later, countless hours of studying knife fighting later, countless hours of studying evasive driving techniques, I feel that I can handle just about anything I will encounter in the civilian world.

With all of that said, know that I'm not merely sitting being worried, its a state of vigilance.
(What I'm trying to say is that I'm not paranoid, I'm just aware and ready).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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Thus, 4 years of Tae Kwon Do later, 10,000rds of ammo later, countless hours of studying knife fighting later, countless hours of studying evasive driving techniques, I feel that I can handle just about anything I will encounter in the civilian world.

The thing is, after all that, I believe you are essentially no safer than I am. You have put incredible effort into it, but I still see little tangible benefit in respect to safety. You can still get hit by a drunk driver just like I can. You can still get shot by a whacko sniper just like I can. You can still get assaulted like I can. I see the situations where I know who the attacker will be, how they will attack me, and have no opportunity to simply flee the scene as being so rare as not to merit further consideration.

If you do the activities (Tae Kwon Do, firing range, etc.) because you enjoy them, then great! That is benefit enough if you take pleasure in them. I just don't think they have a whole lot of practical value in ensuring safety. If the occurences that the training prevents are as rare as getting hit by lightning (hyperbole, not statistic), why bother? I'm not worried about either. I'm not going to stop walking outside because I may get hit by lightning. If a bad situation can't be avoided by common sense, all the training won't help much. Luck has much more to do with it than anything else.

If it all boils down to luck anyway, I'm not going to worry about it, and I'm sure not going to spend my life toiling away to reduce the already negligable danger. I'm too easygoing to bother.

We choose different options. It's all good.

[AggieDave 6]

Yes, I actually really do enjoy all those activities I listed, I probably wouldn't have taken them to the extreme I have if I didn't.

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You can still get assaulted like I can. I see the situations where I know who the attacker will be, how they will attack me, and have no opportunity to simply flee the scene as being so rare as not to merit further consideration.

Then you are a sheep and may end up a statistic. I may not know how someone will attack me, I may not be able to flee, but I know that I am prepaired to do my best to defend me and my family against something like that. Will I have chance to draw my weapon? Maybe, maybe not, it may not be safe to do so (little kids all around, crowd, etc). Will I be able to extract my combat folder (knife), maybe maybe not.


Quite simply I refuse to merely keep going on with my life hoping that everything comes out ok. Bad situations don't arrise merely out of putting yourself there. Common sense can't be relied on to steer you clear every time, if that was true some whack job wouldn't have pulled a gun on me on the highway. I wasn't in the "bad" part of town, I wasn't doing anything that I would have thought would have produced those results (Ok, so I was tailgating him, but still...).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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Then you are a sheep and may end up a statistic.

I am a sheep. I may end up as a statistic. You are right.

But then again, you are a sheep that may end up as a statistic as well. The only difference is that I am self-aware of my status as a sheep, rather than being in denial about it. (Holy shit, I hope Clay doesn't see that!)

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Quite simply I refuse to merely keep going on with my life hoping that everything comes out ok.

Honestly, that is all you really can do. You can prepare for this contingency, or that one, but only the tiniest fraction of possible events that you will face in life. We are not all-powerful. I don't believe anything (God) is either. So with that awareness, all one can do is savor the joys of life, hope the dice don't go against you, and move on.

However, if someone had asked me when I was your age, I wouldn't have replied the same way. I'm hardly an old geezer, but age does grant some wisdom to those willing to accept it.

[AggieDave 6]

I see your attitude as a fairly fatalist one, yeah I might end up a statistic, but I'm going to do everything in my power to prevent it. You know, I felt a hell of a lot safer when I was lost in my truck in down town Houston at 2 in the morning looking for my hotel last year, knowing that I had scenerio trained for a couple different car-jacking situations. No, one that I trained for may not happen, it may be different, but I was situationally aware enough that I was confident I would react correctly in a quick enough manner to save my life if something happened.

I'm not "in denial" about my own morality and my inability to control everything, I'm just willing to look that beast in the eyes and work to change the odds in my favor.

Age and wisdom has nothing to do with this, common sense and a sense of self preservation does. I know quite a few people that are older then the two of us put together that have the same views I do and have done a lot of the same training I've done. Some of them have actually had to put that training to use, obviously coming out on top, since I know them now.


Are you going to be at Eloy? After the past couple years of us getting into some interesting discussions it would be fun to actually meet you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."