someone please explain this to me...

[goose491 0]

Yup, I think Amy has done her homework Very well put amy!

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[dreamsville 0]

I started doing a lot of sit flying last year after about 500-600 RW jumps (I still do RW and RW video). This year I began getting coaching on head-down and have done mostly free-flying in the last few months (still love those 10-20 flat flys though, esp the swoop!!). I am just now getting to the stage where I can reduce the tension enough to find "the tube" (dead air on back and front of body) and be in a head-down on most jumps, but once in a while still tense up unnecessarily. My point is that doing RW, heads, up, and head down flying acceptably is a challenge, but especially head-down! Just to stay current with a few improvemnts burns 400+ jumps/year for me.

Having said this, why do I do it??? I have some close friends who free-fly and I want to jump with them also, I love it when I do it, and it's a challenge. I have met new people with different outlooks and have learned that there are super people in both old and new stuff. Once you begin to understand the mood and techniques in RW and "free-fly", you will hopefully smile and give handshakes to others, regardless of discipline, before the exit.

It's all good!! Together we own the skies!! Acutally, so do Whuffos, but it's more fun to hang out in it than to just look up in it.

Respect the flying disciplines of others. It's fun, and it's usually not a piece of cake, especially if you are close-minded.

Harry

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[PhillyKev 0]

I would have to say there's definitely some misinformation there

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It's strange for those of us who "grew up in the old days" to hear that freefly coaches tell their students "never look at the ground,"

You don't want to stare at the ground, but you should definitely be able to and should definitely look down to see where you are. It's really not that hard. I was told during AFF (they still do that on your belly) not to look at the ground, to look at the horizon. But that doesn't mean never look at the ground, just don't fixate on it.

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a lot of freeflyers only wear audible altimeters

I've seen a few flat fliers without visual alti's also.

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relying on an audible and an AAD to save your life when you can't see the ground just seems. . . well. . . it's just unimaginable to a lot of us.

That should seem unimaginable to everyone, no matter what position they fly in. I've heard about 4 way teams going too low because of concentrating on points instead of their altitude. I don't think loss of alti awareness can be attributed to one discipline or the other.

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there's an attitude among newer skydivers that a lot of us don't understand

Is it possible that you're not taking the time to understand what their attitude is and making assumptions about it?

[Sebazz1 2]

I am kinda into side flyin these days. Not to many people to jump with yet but you'll see. It'll be the next "BIG" thang........ It is important to always spot the side slyer right over the top of the DZ. Yeah and don't mess with side flyers, they are crazy crazy..........

[pop 0]

SIDEFLYING?!?!? Well that is just outrageous. You have gone beyond the dark side, young man. It's...it's people like you who give a bad name to the sport. Sideflying, well I ain't never heard of that. And how do you plan on doing big ways on your side. That is just too dangerous. I am appauled. Just where is the sport heading too? Sideflying!!!!

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[PLFXpert 0]

Fact of life, Old timers will always say, "those damn kids are doing those f*cking stupid things, again."

I think we should all appreciate the variety in the sport. Some people swim freestyle, others like the backstroke but they're all SWIMMERS.

I started freeflying on my 20th jump. I had about 2 hours total, tunnel time, at the time, all on my belly doing 2-way w/ myself in the mirror or flying w/ my newly made skydiving friends. (I had a job w/ the company that owns the tunnel so I was able to fly for free for a while.) I enjoyed the 10-way and 5-ways I did before I freeflied, but my goal was to be good enough to fly w/ these 3 freefliers at my dz who I really enjoyed. I told my boyfriend, he gave me some tips (about not-corking by staying small, etc.) and on my 20th jump, I sit-flyed the whole time. I got it right away b/c I'd seen it on video tons of times and jsut felt comfortable w/ it. I even went into a stand and came back to a sit. On the following jumps, as I tried new things in my sit, of course I lost balance and fell out but I knew to stay small and would get right back into position. To me, it was plenty safe, at 20 jumps to be freeflying b/c I only did so w/ my boyfriend who had 3,000+ jumps and I knew he was experienced enough to watch out for me and follow me around the sky. After a couple jumps like that, he started staying still, on a heading and making me come to him and stay by him and circle around him. I don't feel it would have been safe for me to learn freeflying if the person I learned w/ wasn't experienced enough to watch out for me. Even now, I can hold a head down but I refuse to fly head down w/ anyone but my boyfriend until I'm MUCH MORE consistent.

I don't think it's an amount of jumps that determines if you're ready or not for something new in the air. If you've been flying on your belly for 1,000 jumps and never have tried to sit-fly, you're back at square one, just like someone w/ 50 jumps learning to sit-fly. In AFF, they graduate you on the basis that they think you're *aware* enought to be a skydiver, so why wouldn't you be *aware* enough to try freeflying, under the right conditions (ie. w/ someone very experienced.)

I consider myself a safe skydiver and I don't see anything wrong w/ me freeflying at 20 jumps.

[Michele 1]

Can't contribute too much which hasn't already been said by folks more learned then me, but I've had this thought dancing through my head for a while, as I watched friends go to the dark side, if they stayed in the sport at all (and had tried the dark side before leaving jumping)...and I most certainly can't address it on a level that most of y'all have...but as a newbie, what I see happening is this.

I wanted to start freeflying - trying a sit, or something - at around jump 30. Why did that thought cross my mind? Because I had been doing solo after solo, because no-one was willing to jump with me. I wanted to continue the learning curve, and couldn't because I have no way to reference myself in the sky...and I figured at least I'd know if I made it into a sit or not. And further, if I lost control, then I couldn't pose a risk to anyone but myself in the air. I could keep learning, I figured, and playing in the sky.

It seems to me that newbies have a hard time getting people to rw jump with them because the skill level is so different, and turn to FF because it offers more opportunities to group jump earlier. It has skills you can practice alone, and then, when someone asks you "can you sit", you can say yes, because you may have gotten something close to it once. But if someone asks me "have you ever turned 5 points", I can't answer in the affirmative.

The last time I brought this up, I was told to go solo for my 1st 100 jumps; or get high $$ coaching from Skydive U, or pay for a private coach. I was told "you shouldn't expect anyone to want to jump with you just because you're new", and various other things like that. Look, I don't have the $$ to buy a coached jump each time I go into the air. I don't have the $$ to get Skydive U coaching all the time. So I am then faced with the solution to solo for the first 100 jumps...which will not teach me anything about rw, and likely will produce very bad habits which will take hundreds of jumps to break. And until then, I have no-one to play with.

I think lots of times, people migrate to "the dark side" because more lower number jumpers are willing to take other newbies up, and show them the ropes. I also think it's something you can "learn" by yourself, whereas rw is not. It's something that allows you to jump with others more quickly, at less expense.

I personally haven't tried a sit, let alone anything else. I have no idea where this sport will take me - which side of the road I'll end up on. But I do plan on playing in both camps. Will I ever be good enough to play on a team? Doubtful. But will that prevent me from trying? Not a chance.

Just my .02...if it's even worth that.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[prepheckt 0]

Hey Michele,
I would have to disagree somewhat with what you've said. I admit, sometimes, I had to do solos so I could just get in the air. It bothered me at first, but I decided to make it work for me. I asked coaches for drill dives and tips and when other jumpers at my dz saw that I did want to get better, I was invited on jumps with them. Also, I was invited by Craig Girard and other members of Airspeed to jump with them. They didn't care how much experience that I had, but how much effort I put it. I think we should all try to remember what it was like when we all started out as brand new jumpers. We should try to help and jump with them, so they don't leave the sport and to make them safer in the air...that's my take, gotta go to class. Michele if you ever come to Eloy or Colorado, look me up. I'll jump with you. blue ones.

"Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet."
-9 toes

[Michele 1]

Hey, Nacho! How're you doing?

Y'know, I was hesitant in posting this, because I didn't want to turn it into a newbie v. high number thing. And for the record, since saying what I had on these forums a while back, I have been blessed with invites to jump - from people like John Brasher, Don Ellisor, Lisa B., Chris Riley, BB, Lummy, among many others. And now you - what a lucky girl I am! Also, got great coaching on canopy flight from Quade, too. There is a wealth of information here! (Thanks, everyone!)

I suppose all I was trying to contribute (awkwardly at best) was it's easier to learn FF then rw if you're jumping by yourself...and because it is, and because lots of people don't know how to ask to jump with others, they start learning FF on their own, and thus migrate towards that discipline. That's all - not complaining about lack of people to jump with me personally...just what I have observed (and btw, the only time I ever came close to a sit was when I was chipping so badly I rocked right up into a sit, and then stayed there for a fraction of a second...totally accidental!)

And as to the idea of drill dives, I appreciate the idea. I will make sure I implement it. Thanks, Nacho!

Ciels and Pinks-
M

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[skybytch 273]

I started jumping before freeflying existed so the choice for me was style and accuracy, RW, CRW and/or freestyle. I chose RW. I now have between 500-600 RW jumps and less than 100 freeflying (mostly sit solos). My goal is to eventually be very good at both - I don't want to be a one trick pony, and I have friends in both "camps" that I want to jump with.

Right now my focus is on RW since I'll be on a flat 140 way in less than two months (being a part of a women's world record has been a goal of mine since shortly after I started jumping) but I still manage to go do a sit jump occasionally (phree, where's that video???). Once the WWR is in the bag, I plan to get some freefly coaching to clean up my sit and learn to fly head down.

I think the future of skydiving is flying in all body positions; being able to only belly fly or only freefly is limiting yourself. I refuse to be limited!

If you've never been on a 40 way or turned 8 points on a belly 8 way... you really don't know what RW has to offer. Likewise, if you've never done a sit fly or head down jump with two or three friends you don't really know what freeflying has to offer. Try (do) it all. Be safe about what you are doing. And have fun, cuz that's what skydiving is supposed to be all about.

All that said, I do think that having 50-100 or more belly jumps before starting to freefly is a good idea. Things happen slower horizontally than they do vertically. While you're still learning about how to fly your body period, why not do it at a lower (ie "safer") speed? Note that I'm not saying that anyone who starts freeflying at 20, 30, 40 jumps is wrong or unsafe...

And while I may be considered an "old timer" based on the number of years I've been jumping, I don't understand the attitude that freeflying is "ruining" the sport either. I think we should all be playing together... More Hybrids!! Hybrids are the answer!!

[Shark 0]

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and I have friends in both "camps" that I want to jump with.

What happend to that other camp? Ya know, the one where we carry big knives?!

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If you've never been on a 40 way or turned 8 points on a belly 8 way... you really don't know what RW has to offer.

Yeah, the big formation loads, even if we even pull of one point are pretty cool. 8 point 8 ways are way cool, too.


It is funny, though, that we look at the different disciplines and think what freaks the others are. Get a different perspective sometime. Seems like we spend too much time and effort being critical of how people look or the type of flying they do. Maybe we can get more FF into RW dives sometime? Depends, if you check, I bet more RW types have a baggy FF suit or pants in their gear bag. How many FFs have r-dub suits in theirs?

I think the 3D Award is a good thing and hope to earn one in the future. I already have all the RW & CRW awards. So, lets not be too judgemental.

Anyway, it is ALL good!

[amy 0]

>I would have to say there's definitely some misinformation there

I'm sure you're right. Like I said, I don't have more than a couple of freefly jumps. But what Yim was asking was why the old guys at that DZ were saying those things. What they were saying was based on their own perceptions of freeflying, filtered through a decade of history that I don't think a lot of newer jumpers are aware of. I'm not saying they're right, just that their view of things might be a little different, and there's a reason for that. I think I do understand where those guys were coming from, and it seems to me that if we can talk about this stuff, we can avoid conversations like the one that Yim had.

>I don't think loss of alti awareness can be attributed to one discipline or the other.

I agree with you - loss of altitude awareness can't be attributed to any one discipline over the other. But I was under the impression that when you were head down, you _couldn't_ look at the ground for some reason, or that people were being trained not to look. Sounds like I was wrong.

Amy

[dreamsville 0]

Steve Utter coached me on sit fly a couple of times and I asked him about RW as useful, even if you free fly. He said it's best to get at least 50 or so flat flys as a basis.

I don't know where you jump, but we'll meet sometime I'm sure, Sky(bytch) Lisa. You seem as though you rock.

Cool sunsets, Harry

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Opie 0]

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More Hybrids!! Hybrids are the answer!!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Hybrids are a fad. Sideflyin yeah that's the shit!!!

[AndyMan 7]

The old guys who don't understand freeflying don't bug me. Older people are allowed to be narrow minded in my books, for the most part that comes with age, to some degree. People just get to the point where they LIKE what they're doing, and don't see a need to learn something new. That's a bad thing then they're 28... but if they're 58? or 68? I won't hold it against them.

What I really don't understand is the attitude among so many freeflyers that they ONLY freefly. People who simply won't jump with anyone unless they're on their head. Young people have no excuse for not learning new things, and good RW skills are definately dificult to learn, and a whole lotta fun when you pull it off.

A lot of people talk about RW skills and say things like "you should learn RW because it's part of your history". It's not only part of our history, it's part of our present, and part of our future. You can think of it the same way as style and accuracy... Accuracy isn't dead, DZ's still have 'peas'. People are still trying to nail the peas. A big part of every swooping competition is an accuracy contest. Accuracy has just evolved into HIGH PERFORMANCE accuracy.

RW is doing the same thing. RW jumps keep getting bigger and bigger. Younger and younger jumpers are being able to jump in on 20+ ways. Hell, our very own Vallerina did a two-plane shot 40+ way last weekend, and if I remember correctly, she's got 250ish jumps. That's AWESOME. I'm jealous!

Anybody who thinks RW is going away has got blinders on.

And before anybody says something, yes, I freefly too.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[lummy 4]

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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Hybrids are a fad. Sideflyin yeah that's the shit!!!

I'm gonna learn dat der SIDEFLYIN so I can be COOL too, So whatif I only have 18 jumps and on student status... I can handle it, I learn FAST, even my JM said so.....

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[quade 4]

I'm going to assume you've already seen this photo, but I'll post it anyway.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jessica 0]

*sniff* I can do that.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[quade 4]

Is that glue you're sniffin'?

I can't even conceive of how Dale does that!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jessica 0]

Ummmm yeah, it's really easy.

*looking around uneasily*

Just so I won't be a post whore, I'll add what I think about the whole R-dub vs. FF thing....

Some freefliers I encounter seem to want to make it VERY CLEAR that they are COOL, not SQUARE, and therefore they ONLY FREEFLY. That annoys me.

I do things better when I have some rules to work with. Dock here, Jess; grab here, Jess; turn here, Jess...and fly your ass off and have a good time, while you're at it, Jess.

That doesn't mean I don't desperately want to be a good freeflier too, though. I do. I want to eat up every bit of this sport with a spoon. And I work at it. Every breakthough I make comes because I've busted my ass to learn it. This shit does not come easy to me. So I get pissy when someone dismisses RW as "easy" or "too uptight" or whatever.

And I also get pissy when people seem eager to encourage the cleaving between the two disciplines. The thinking seems to be, "If I make fun of RW, and promote the idea that it's nerdy, then freeflying seems even cooler!"

But maybe I'm just grumpy.

Anyway, MOST of the skydivers I've met are super cool, flat or funky.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[billvon 3,090]

>You don't want to stare at the ground, but you should definitely be
> able to and should definitely look down to see where you are.

I agree, which is why I found it strange to hear more than one freefly "coach" telling the person he was coaching "you don't want to look at the ground! It will cause stability problems."

I don't think this is exclusively due to the new body positions people are flying in - I think it's at least partly due to the fact that modern freeflying (as opposed to freak flying, or freestyle) evolved after the cypres and audible were common. You can go through 500 jumps and rely on your audible; if on that 501st your batteries die, your cypres will save you. Heck, such antics regularly make the ends of freefly videos now. That kind of reliance is a relatively new concept, one that scares many "old timers."

>I've seen a few flat fliers without visual alti's also.

I have too; John Hamilton for one. He uses his eyeballs, which I think in many ways is better than using an audible _or_ visual altimeter.

>That should seem unimaginable to everyone, no matter what
> position they fly in. I've heard about 4 way teams going too low
> because of concentrating on points instead of their altitude.

Quite true; no one is immune. I think that freeflying is more susceptible to this problem simply because it's newer. There are plenty of people out there who won't jump without the feeling of safety an AAD gives them. That could not happen as RW was evolving, since there were no reliable AAD's available. That makes newer jumpers (and, to some extent, newer disciplines) more susceptible to AAD reliance.

>Is it possible that you're not taking the time to understand what their
> attitude is and making assumptions about it?

I notice the same thing. Freeflyers do things like exceed the limits of their equipment on every single jump, use audibles only, etc and that's sorta a new attitude, one that puzzles some of us "old timers." Personally, I have no problems with it - everyone can decide their own level of risk, whether it's BASE jumping, freeflying or big ways. Freeflyers take some increased risks by pushing the limits of their gear, and as long as they're OK with that, no problem.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Is that glue you're sniffin'?

True quote heard from our graphics designer in the office yesterday, "Caaaaarrrrrriiiie! Did you steal my rubber cement, again?" *sniff* *sniff*, "Ugh, no, um, wait, here it is on my desk...how'd that get here?"

Ha ha ha ha ha! J/k...she really was missing her rubber cement and I always smell it when I go visit her in her office but I SWEAR I didn't take it....Ha ha ha ha.

[freeflir29 0]

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I agree, which is why I found it strange to hear more than one freefly "coach" telling the person he was coaching "you don't want to look at the ground! It will cause stability problems."

That's just for beginners. Once you figure it out you can look at anything you want. When a newbie is trying to learn HD they have a tendancy to look at the ground. I know I did. This causes a nasty backslide most of the time. That's why it's "Eyes on the horizon!!!" until you learn to feel the air.....

[ltdiver 3]

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Today it's possible to put nearly 300 people in an RW formation and have it fly...

See FutureCam is back on-line!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon