SudsyFist 0 #101 December 11, 2002 Quote When discussions like this start there are always those that will pick "peace" at any cost. That seems to be you....and those 104 actors in Hollywood that signed a petition against ANY war with Iraq. They seem to think diplomacy can and will solve all our problems. hehehe, lay off the crack, man... it's interfering with your reading comprehension. steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prepheckt 0 #102 December 11, 2002 Quotediplomacy can and will solve all our problems. Agreed Clay, but the degree must be analyzed and quantifed. The axiom that "Violence never solves anything" is a lot of tripe. ie (WWII, Hiroshima and Nagasaki..etc)Up to a point..but in solving the immediate problem, it may create greater ones in the long run. (ie supporting the Mujadaheen in the Afghan-Soviet war). Diplomacy should always be tried first, but IF need be force should be used...but that force must be proportional.. otherwise you risk violating the jus ad bello distinctions of the just war framework..."Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet." -9 toes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #103 December 11, 2002 ?? I guess I am. OF course it will matter. I'm not so "naive" to think that our world will function without oil, but the question is, what impact is our end-use having on the source? If we were to drill in alaska, we'd have 'extremists' up there sabotaging stuff left and right. But why? Why is it fine to do that on the other side of the planet, but not in our backyard? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #104 December 11, 2002 Quote they will have far less rationale for their behavior. Hehehehee....like that would make any difference.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #105 December 11, 2002 Quote Quote they will have far less rationale for their behavior. Hehehehee....like that would make any difference.... That's not the point. The fact is, it'll make it far harder for bleeding hearts over here to blame us for what the ragheads do."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #106 December 11, 2002 Quote Hehehehee....like that would make any difference.... And it's once we've already reserved ourselves to the above comment, that we preclude rationale in our behavior. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #107 December 11, 2002 Quote ...but that force must be proportional.. otherwise you risk violating the jus ad bello distinctions of the just war framework... Jus ad bello is "Justice in War", asking the question "is how you fight the war just?" War has distinct "rules" proportion of force is not one of them, limits on weapons are. There's a difference. Case in point: The Gulf War followed the "rules", but the power of the force fighting Iraq was overwhelming, resulting in a very asymetric victory for the coalition, without the use of specialized WMD: --Separation of civilian and soldier --Legitimate and illegitimate means --Protection of prisoners --Limits on weapons use --Formal international agreements exist What is coming to a head in the current headlines is "Jus ad bellum"...is the war itself just? We're closer to the edge than I would like, but I would say YES. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #108 December 11, 2002 Quotebut that force must be proportional.. otherwise you risk violating the jus ad bello distinctions of the just war framework... Yes proportional....What was that line from "Swordfish" ......"It's our job to make terrorism SO horrible that the thought of terorrism is inconcievable." Something like that anyway......100,000:1 seems like a nice proportion to me. QuoteI'm not so "naive" to think that our world will function without oil, but the question is, what impact is our end-use having on the source? I think you missed my point. The US Govt isn't really concearned with your FM radio, sat TV, and what you are having for dinner tonight. They are concearned with keeping threats in the world at bay so that this country will continue to be here FOREVER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prepheckt 0 #109 December 11, 2002 Quote As I also mentioned, the ragheads will still hate us, but they will have far less rationale for their behavior. First of all Mark, I am not aware of your backgroundbut I must say that I am disturbed by your use of the word "ragheads". I see it as an ethnic/racial slur. It is no different then using racial epithets against African-Americans or other Ameicans who are not Caucasian. Like me..I am serving (learning how to) serve in the military and I will give my life for this nation and the principles that it stands for. Also, I think Sangiro would agree that use of such language is a violation of the forum rules ie (No personal attacks). Second, they already don't have any rationale to attack us..other then what they understand Islam (which is one of their basis for attacking us). People attack what they do not understand..Have you actually taken the time to study or at the very least gather some basic knowledge of the Islamic faith? Not trying to bash anyone..just open some minds.."Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet." -9 toes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #110 December 11, 2002 Quote?? I guess I am. OF course it will matter. I'm not so "naive" to think that our world will function without oil, but the question is, what impact is our end-use having on the source? If we were to drill in alaska, we'd have 'extremists' up there sabotaging stuff left and right. But why? Why is it fine to do that on the other side of the planet, but not in our backyard? A light-sided answer would be: Their oil fields are in the desert. There's nothing there but sand. On a more serious note: You're right, ELF would be first in line to try something at ANWR. But a couple thousand acres out of some 5M doesn't seem like a terrible sacrifice to me...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #111 December 11, 2002 Quote Quote ...but that force must be proportional.. otherwise you risk violating the jus ad bello distinctions of the just war framework... Jus ad bello is "Justice in War", asking the question "is how you fight the war just?" War has distinct "rules" proportion of force is not one of them, limits on weapons are. There's a difference. Case in point: The Gulf War followed the "rules", but the power of the force fighting Iraq was overwhelming, resulting in a very asymetric victory for the coalition, without the use of specialized WMD: --Separation of civilian and soldier --Legitimate and illegitimate means --Protection of prisoners --Limits on weapons use --Formal international agreements exist What is coming to a head in the current headlines is "Jus ad bellum"...is the war itself just? We're closer to the edge than I would like, but I would say YES. "With us there is great justice, because the war is just which is necessary, and arms are hallowed when there is no other hope but in them." -- Machiavelli"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prepheckt 0 #112 December 11, 2002 Quote Jus ad bello is "Justice in War", proportion of force is not one of them, limits on weapons are. --Limits on weapons use Agreed, but Proportionality is related to weapons use.. Hungary in 1956..they revolted..they expected us to help out..other then going to war with the Soviets..we couldn't use "the nuclear sledgehammer" You bring up the Gulf War..We could have used nukes..but other then its an indiscriminate weapon (kills combatants and noncombatants), we didn't need to because we could counter with conventional weapons and force.."Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet." -9 toes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #113 December 11, 2002 QuoteQuote I see it as an ethnic/racial slur Not trying to bash anyone..just open some minds.. I don't care. Try opening THEIR minds."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites prepheckt 0 #114 December 11, 2002 Quote I don't care. Try opening THEIR minds. Ironically, you just refuted your own point.. I take it from your response you do not understand then nor do you care to..Your attitude, to be blunt, is creating the problem you want solved. With a response like what you posted above shows how little social responsibility you have."Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet." -9 toes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SudsyFist 0 #115 December 11, 2002 shite, missed this for a bit! QuoteLove the base solo on that song. Don't care much for the rest of the album though. yeah, that album was soooo cheez... murder and the instrumental towards the end were the only two somewhat worthy tracks. gilmour's '77 self titled solo album had a few more goodies, tho. steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #116 December 11, 2002 Quote Agreed, but Proportionality is related to weapons use.. You substantiated my point, your previous post: Quote should always be tried first, but IF need be force should be used...but that force must be proportional.. otherwise you risk violating the jus ad bello distinctions of the just war framework... Your original post was stating that the "Force" itself must be proportional. Jus ad bello does not dictate that. Jus ad bello limits the weapons to be used. Without specialized weapons, the coalition force was an overwhelming, disproportionate force. edit> cleaning up my punctuation... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #117 December 11, 2002 Quote Try opening THEIR minds They did....with a 40MM Bofors cannon. It seems to be very enlightening for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #118 December 11, 2002 Quote Quote Try opening THEIR minds They did....with a 40MM Bofors cannon. It seems to be very enlightening for them. For those of you just joining us, here is a 40MM Bofors cannon as mounted on a warship: Bofors This weapon fires HEI (High Explosive Incendiary) rounds at up to 100 per minute. Please keep in mind that this is the much SMALLER of the two cannon on the AC-130."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #119 December 11, 2002 QuoteQuote I don't care. Try opening THEIR minds. Ironically, you just refuted your own point.. I take it from your response you do not understand then nor do you care to... Whatever for? Are we supposed to award them points for good form or something? I do understand. I understand that only the most unholy brutality can stop thugs who would hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings. If your heart needs to bleed, let it bleed for the flight attendant on one of the planes, whose charred, bound hands were found in the ruins of the WTC. Think about her family, who had to have that told to them by the investigators. BTW that's not an urban myth (snopes)."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #120 December 11, 2002 QuoteI don't care. This is quite obvious. Here I thought you played by the rules.....Sangiro allows us the freedom of expression in these forums as long as we abide by the very simple rules that he has established. You may want to re-think your position on "I don't care" because as most of us are aware.....HH certainly does. Respectfully, BB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #121 December 11, 2002 Quotegilmour's '77 self titled solo album had a few more goodies, tho. steve LOVED that album. Still do."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #122 December 11, 2002 QuoteQuoteI don't care. This is quite obvious. Here I thought you played by the rules.....Sangiro allows us the freedom of expression in these forums as long as we abide by the very simple rules that he has established. You may want to re-think your position on "I don't care" because as most of us are aware.....HH certainly does. Respectfully, BB With respect - the rule says "NO personal attacks - NONE". I have made personal attacks towards nobody. I have referred to Islamic Fundamentalist psychopaths as "ragheads". I fail to see how this is a personal attack. However, I will abide by Sangiro's judgment (or that of his moderators), as it is by his leave we post here. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sinkster 0 #123 December 11, 2002 I just want to say that I agree with you Mark and support your stance on the war. I also want to say to the bleeding hearts that if the ragheads (thanks for defining the term) were torturing your family or gang raping your wife (or yourself) you would have a VERY different perspective on the issue. It's easy to be all lovey dovey when you're not directly affected by the violence. It *is* a shame that we have to destroy them, but if that's what it takes for our people and civilization to endure then so be it. Why should we let them destroy us? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sangiro 26 #124 December 11, 2002 Quote"I don't care" because as most of us are aware.....HH certainly does. That is true, unlike Mark I do care. Although I couldn't disagree more with his comments, he has not made any personal attacks and this thread remains. In the meantime we sit back and get to know each other....Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #125 December 11, 2002 QuoteIn the meantime we sit back and get to know each other.... Too true...amazing how views change....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 5 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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prepheckt 0 #114 December 11, 2002 Quote I don't care. Try opening THEIR minds. Ironically, you just refuted your own point.. I take it from your response you do not understand then nor do you care to..Your attitude, to be blunt, is creating the problem you want solved. With a response like what you posted above shows how little social responsibility you have."Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet." -9 toes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #115 December 11, 2002 shite, missed this for a bit! QuoteLove the base solo on that song. Don't care much for the rest of the album though. yeah, that album was soooo cheez... murder and the instrumental towards the end were the only two somewhat worthy tracks. gilmour's '77 self titled solo album had a few more goodies, tho. steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #116 December 11, 2002 Quote Agreed, but Proportionality is related to weapons use.. You substantiated my point, your previous post: Quote should always be tried first, but IF need be force should be used...but that force must be proportional.. otherwise you risk violating the jus ad bello distinctions of the just war framework... Your original post was stating that the "Force" itself must be proportional. Jus ad bello does not dictate that. Jus ad bello limits the weapons to be used. Without specialized weapons, the coalition force was an overwhelming, disproportionate force. edit> cleaning up my punctuation... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #117 December 11, 2002 Quote Try opening THEIR minds They did....with a 40MM Bofors cannon. It seems to be very enlightening for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #118 December 11, 2002 Quote Quote Try opening THEIR minds They did....with a 40MM Bofors cannon. It seems to be very enlightening for them. For those of you just joining us, here is a 40MM Bofors cannon as mounted on a warship: Bofors This weapon fires HEI (High Explosive Incendiary) rounds at up to 100 per minute. Please keep in mind that this is the much SMALLER of the two cannon on the AC-130."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #119 December 11, 2002 QuoteQuote I don't care. Try opening THEIR minds. Ironically, you just refuted your own point.. I take it from your response you do not understand then nor do you care to... Whatever for? Are we supposed to award them points for good form or something? I do understand. I understand that only the most unholy brutality can stop thugs who would hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings. If your heart needs to bleed, let it bleed for the flight attendant on one of the planes, whose charred, bound hands were found in the ruins of the WTC. Think about her family, who had to have that told to them by the investigators. BTW that's not an urban myth (snopes)."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #120 December 11, 2002 QuoteI don't care. This is quite obvious. Here I thought you played by the rules.....Sangiro allows us the freedom of expression in these forums as long as we abide by the very simple rules that he has established. You may want to re-think your position on "I don't care" because as most of us are aware.....HH certainly does. Respectfully, BB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #121 December 11, 2002 Quotegilmour's '77 self titled solo album had a few more goodies, tho. steve LOVED that album. Still do."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #122 December 11, 2002 QuoteQuoteI don't care. This is quite obvious. Here I thought you played by the rules.....Sangiro allows us the freedom of expression in these forums as long as we abide by the very simple rules that he has established. You may want to re-think your position on "I don't care" because as most of us are aware.....HH certainly does. Respectfully, BB With respect - the rule says "NO personal attacks - NONE". I have made personal attacks towards nobody. I have referred to Islamic Fundamentalist psychopaths as "ragheads". I fail to see how this is a personal attack. However, I will abide by Sangiro's judgment (or that of his moderators), as it is by his leave we post here. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #123 December 11, 2002 I just want to say that I agree with you Mark and support your stance on the war. I also want to say to the bleeding hearts that if the ragheads (thanks for defining the term) were torturing your family or gang raping your wife (or yourself) you would have a VERY different perspective on the issue. It's easy to be all lovey dovey when you're not directly affected by the violence. It *is* a shame that we have to destroy them, but if that's what it takes for our people and civilization to endure then so be it. Why should we let them destroy us? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 26 #124 December 11, 2002 Quote"I don't care" because as most of us are aware.....HH certainly does. That is true, unlike Mark I do care. Although I couldn't disagree more with his comments, he has not made any personal attacks and this thread remains. In the meantime we sit back and get to know each other....Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #125 December 11, 2002 QuoteIn the meantime we sit back and get to know each other.... Too true...amazing how views change....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
