Total Gun-Ban worked...

[jfields 0]

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by
Erich Pratt
Director of Communications
Gun Owners of America
August 2001

First off, I'd ask for an impartial recounting of the events. The "Gun Owners of America" can hardly be called upon for an unbiased account.

Anyway, here is a counterexample:

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On October 18, 1994, 17 year old Matthew Turk got and used his father's handgun and ammunition to murder Anthony Long.

Long v. Turk, 962 P.2d 1093 (Kansas Supreme Court 1998)

And another:

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DETROIT (January 6, 2:41 a.m. AST) - A 21-month-old boy was fatally shot when he tipped over a laundry hamper containing a handgun that discharged, police said.
Yolanda Hode, 23, told police a .32-caliber pistol was in a clothes basket her son, Damon Quarker, was playing with Saturday night. She said the gun went off when Damon pulled the basket down off of a plastic container.

The boy was struck on the left side of the chest, Officer Thaxon Hill said. He was taken to St. John's Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Damon and his mother lived with her parents, who were watching television in the living room at the time.

The gun belonged to a family member, homicide inspector Craig Schwartz told the Detroit Free Press for a story in Monday's editions.

Police will report to the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office, which will decide whether to file charges.

In 2002, 26 children 16 and younger were killed in the city; 17 died of gunshots, Wayne County medical examiner records show.

http://www.adn.com/24hour/nation/story/703941p-5197883c.html

And another:

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MISSISSAUGA, Ont. (CP) - A six-year-old boy was shot dead by his seven-year-old sister while the two played with a .45-calibre handgun owned by their 22-year-old brother, police said Saturday.

The two young children were playing in a bedroom Friday afternoon when they discovered the high-powered, semi-automatic pistol. The girl pointed the gun at her brother and shot him, police said in a release.

The boy was pronounced dead at Credit Valley Hospital a short time later.

The 22-year-old brother is in custody and faces charges of criminal negligence causing death and various firearms offences. He was to appear in court in nearby Brampton, Ont., on Saturday.

"Investigation suggests the handgun was not registered and its history is currently being examined," Peel Regional Police said in a news release.

The young boy and his sister were under the care of their 18-year-old sister, who was elsewhere in the home, police said. The names of the individuals involved were not released.

No charges were possible against the seven-year-old, police said. Investigators were working with the Children's Aid Society to decide what would happen to the young girl.

"I am deeply saddened by the tragic death of this child and the trauma this event has visited upon the family," said Noel Catney, Peel Regional Police Chief.

"At the same time, it underscores the danger of firearms and the onus placed on all gun owners to ensure firearms are stored and handled safely."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Law/2003/01/04/8926-cp.html

So, when you asked:

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Therefore, I challenge you: WHAT ABOUT THESE CHILDREN?

I'll retort the same thing. For every case where you can cite a minor using a gun to defend themselves in their homes, I'll bet you a case of beer I can cite a case where a minor was killed with an unsecured gun from someone's home. Hell, as sad as it is, I can probaby find two to every one you find. Good for my arguement, but sad the the dead kids.

Would you honestly be able to look me in the eye and tell me that an unsecured gun in the home with young children presents no danger to them?

[kallend 2,153]

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Gun related murders per 100,000 population

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So based on the above, I am about 40 times more likely to murdered in the US, than at home in Scotland.

Flawed logic. You are 4 times as likely to be murdered by a gun in Scottland. But what about total murder rates? It's possible you're just as likely to be murdered, but with a knife or bat instead of a gun. It's probably not the case, but your numbers prove nothing.

It's all available on the USDOJ or FBI web sites. The UK does not have a higher rate of non-gun homicides than the USA. The USA is way higher in gun homicides.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

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Would you honestly be able to look me in the eye and tell me that an unsecured gun in the home with young children presents no danger to them?

I think it depends on the home (BTW - Guns <> Freedom. Freedom = RESPONSIBILITY), but my greatest objection to this discussion is the simplistic "One Size Fits All" legislation imposed by a faceless bureaucracy that mandates that rural Nebraska, for example, or in the case of the story, rural California, is the same as the District of Columbia with respect to law and order.

Yes, GOA is biased, but the report came from the California media; GOA merely re-ran it with some of their own remarks.

Please keep in mind that media bias means that every instance of a firearm-related accident or murder will be hyped and/or sensationalized, and every instance of those who successfully defend themselves with firearms will be marginalized at best, or worse, dismissed or ignored. I don't have the stats in front of me, but it's my understanding that the responsible use, in self-defense, of lawfully armed citizens runs at least 10:1 AGAINST their unlawful use.

Ann Coulter put it best in a recent column (and I paraphrase):

"If the Second Amendment was interpreted as liberally as the First has been, we'd all have our own nuclear weapons by now."

Another quote by Coulter (paraphrased):

"Liberals, when defending the First Amendment, cite Thomas Jefferson and other Founding Fathers, and the general consensus is that we must tolerate the odious misuse of the First Amendment because it's necessary for freedom in general. Yet, when the Second Amendment is discussed, it's comparatively treated as Hustler Magazine."

Another thing, pray tell me: Why do the words "The People" reflect INDIVIDUAL rights with respect to the First, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution, but in the case of the Second Amendment, it somehow becomes "Oh, that's not what the founders meant"?

Bleeding-heart liberals, in their hand-wringing zeal to "DO SOMETHING!" have usually ended up doing the wrong thing. Earlier in this thread, I remarked about the 18th Amendment, and how much true harm can be inflicted by stupid, feel-good legislation, and tied it to what's going on in Britain right now, but look at it this way:

"Don't like abortions? DON'T HAVE ONE"

"Don't like guns? DON'T OWN ONE"

Both of these slogans have an implicit statement behind them - LEAVE ME ALONE.

True anecdotal story, from Charlton Heston's autobiography, "In The Arena". During the LA riots, some of Heston's gun-grabber liberal show-biz neighbors called him and asked him for guns. He reminded them that they had voted for the 15-day waiting period legislation. He related another gun owner, director John McTiernan, got the same calls. He simply said, "Sorry, they're all in use."

Finally, before you dismiss me as some kind of gun-nut whacko, please see
and [url "http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/somesee2_s.jpg">This.

I find abortion execrable, yet I won't tell other people what to do with their bodies.

Self-defense is a fundamental human right. I think it is highly arrogant of you to advocate the depriving of others of that right.

Respectfully,

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[AggieDave 6]

I grew up in a home with MANY unlocked firearms and I was taught to shoot at a young age. I also knew that if I was even near where they were stored with out my father, I was in a serious amount of deep shit. So what happened? Until I was older, I didn't go near any of our firearms unless my dad was with me and HE was getting them out.

Once again, it boils down to the irresponsibility of parents and how they raise their children.

I was also spanked for punishment, which would probably have child protective services on the doorstep within the hour now days...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,120]

>Ann Coulter put it best in a recent column . . .

Ann Coulter? The same Ann Coulter who said liberals have to be threatened with death, or they will turn out to be outright traitors? The same one that told a disabled vietnam vet "You're the reason we lost the war?" The same one that said god gave us this planet to "rape it?" (her own words.)

She's as entertaining as Rush Limbaugh, but has a lot less credibility.

>Both of these slogans have an implicit statement behind them -
> LEAVE ME ALONE.

I think if gun users did, indeed, leave people alone, then there would be no issue. Unfortunately they kill a lot of people, and if someone kills me, that's about as far as 'leaving me alone' as you can get. The sad truth is that guns are used to kill a lot of innocent people, and that bothers some people. Reduce or eliminate that problem and all the clamor for gun control would go away.

[PhillyKev 0]

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The sad truth is that guns are used to kill a lot of innocent people, and that bothers some people. Reduce or eliminate that problem and all the clamor for gun control would go away.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. Do you think if we actually successfully got rid of all guns that drug dealers would stop killing each other over territories? Nope..they'd just find a different method to kill each other.

[Guest]

All I can say is that disarming a violent society like ours, without first reining in the violence, will result in anarchy. This is being seen in Britain now, where the subjects are at the mercy of predators, and the authorities are making that sad state of affairs possible.

I also noticed your crass ad hominem attack upon Ann Coulter, Bill. It appears that you are unable (or unwilling) to refute her argument on intellectual terms, therefore you condemn her on the personal level.

Shield

I am a conservative/libertarian. Here is a fave of mine: Bash This!

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[flyingferret 0]

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Once again, it boils down to the irresponsibility of parents and how they raise their children.

Oh my gosh, what all could that apply to? You mean American are pushing responsibility for their actions on others?
I agree totally, and could ramble on, but I will try not to flame.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[skreamer 1]

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This is being seen in Britain now, where the subjects are at the mercy of predators, and the authorities are making that sad state of affairs possible.

I live in Britain. I've been living in Britain for six years. Obviously there are places in London where I wouldn't go walking around at night on my own. But this probably holds true for most cities in the world. But to say that I am a subject at the mercy of predators???

I'm trying very hard to figure out whether this is a troll or just brain-dead rhetoric, either way its a load of bullshit.

[billvon 3,120]

>All I can say is that disarming a violent society like ours, without first
> reining in the violence, will result in anarchy.

I would argue that reducing the _violence_ in a society is the ultimate goal. Gun control is one (fairly poor) way to do it, but if there are absolutely no other alternatives, it will be tried. I would prefer to think that there are other alternatives.

>I also noticed your crass ad hominem attack upon Ann Coulter, Bill.
> It appears that you are unable (or unwilling) to refute her argument
> on intellectual terms, therefore you condemn her on the personal
> level.

I don't know her personally. I don't know if she's smart or stupid, just that she says really stupid things, and likes to piss people off (by her own admission.) Based on that she's not worth arguing with or about. But heck, defend her if you think she needs it!

[Guest]

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The sad truth is that guns are used to kill a lot of innocent people, and that bothers some people. Reduce or eliminate that problem and all the clamor for gun control would go away.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. Do you think if we actually successfully got rid of all guns that drug dealers would stop killing each other over territories? Nope..they'd just find a different method to kill each other.

Please see "War on Drugs" for an example of such silly thinking (making something illegal somehow magically makes it go away).

They wouldn't find a different method, no more than those gang-bangers in the UK. Would you give up on such an effective tool? Especially considering that if you were somehow miraculously denied access to factory-made firearms, you could simply make your own?

What will the authorities do then? Ban sulfur? It can be extracted from common products by solution.

Ban charcoal? When you can make your own from wood? Ah, ban wood. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh, how about we ban lead? I can get tons of it anywhere, or go dig up my own. Or use other materials like steel ball bearings. Wanna try to ban those too?

Ban Potassium Nitrate! Right. Let's ban guano, or better yet, ban the birds and bats that make it. Don't forget fertilizer!

I could make a 4-shot zip gun from materials available in any hardware store in just a couple of hours. In a pinch, I could slap together something really crude that would nonetheless take someone's head off in just a few minutes.

And that's just using primitive methods and materials. Given some machine tools and the formulas for the TNT series and smokeless powder (themselves no secret), I could manufacture something really scary, as a chap in England did a few years ago...

"In Afghanistan the mujahideen churned out AK-47s with little more than Medieval blacksmith's tools. Currently serving a four year sentence, Philip Luty created a sub-machine gun using basic DIY tools."

"How in heaven did things get so completely screwed up so that the most vile and violent criminals have more rights and protection under the "law" than productive people, yet some poor soul who stupidly smokes a common weed is treated worse than a dog in a puppy mill, is branded a felon for life, and may well be killed by the police for this sorry 'crime'?"

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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This is being seen in Britain now, where the subjects are at the mercy of predators, and the authorities are making that sad state of affairs possible.

I live in Britain. I've been living in Britain for six years. Obviously there are places in London where I wouldn't go walking around at night on my own. But this probably holds true for most cities in the world. But to say that I am a subject at the mercy of predators???

I'm trying very hard to figure out whether this is a troll or just brain-dead rhetoric, either way its a load of bullshit.

Those people in Birmingham sure are.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[flyingferret 0]

Well first off, trying to keep this thread light...always carry lots of ammo, ammo is cheap, life is expensive. J/K

I will say that I have never been in Britain, but I have always been amazed at how the police often do not carry guns. Perhaps in places in Britain there is not a need for them.

Also, as this thread has tried to point out over and over, it is all about perspective. For instance in Texas, there are still very many places where you may need guns to protect yourself from animals not people. Many rural homes I have entered had a shotgun or 22 by the front door to scare off coyotes attacking lifestock, etc.

On a sidenote, you might be surprised to see gun ownership in Arizone be very high as well for similar reasons, but crime lower due to less urban population. I have no idea, I am just surmising.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Please see "War on Drugs" for an example of such silly thinking (making something illegal somehow magically makes it go away).

Dude...we're on the same side. I was pointing out that even if magically all guns disappeared (not banned, but actually physically didn't exist), even out of criminal hands, that subset of society would still be just as violent. Slow down, man. You're arguing against your allies

[Guest]

I know - I thought I was reinforcing that argument, rather than refuting it (or you)...my bad...

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

Britain Pushes for Stiffer Gun Penalties

Yeah, like that's going to do a lot of good...

"Blunkett is also reportedly considering banning replica guns which can be adapted to fire real bullets."

HAHAHA, now there's a hot one!

Replicas are made of really weak materials like zinc. Any jackass who tries to convert one is going to get the surprise of his life when it blows up in his face!

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[skreamer 1]

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Those people in Birmingham sure are.

Because two girls got shot to death? So now everybody in Birmingham is a 'subject at the mercy of predators'?

How many teenagers have been shot to death in the USA in the last 24 hours?

Yet again I get the impression that you are trolling - stupid me for taking the bait yet again...

[jfields 0]

Mark,

I'll take some aspects one at a time.

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my greatest objection to this discussion is the simplistic "One Size Fits All"

I'm fine with having laws that fit the regions. DC is different than Montana, without question. That applies to hunting rifles, shotguns, etc. Handguns are pretty much the same everywhere, as they don't have much hunting use. Their targets are generally people.

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Bleeding-heart liberals, in their hand-wringing zeal to "DO SOMETHING!" have usually ended up doing the wrong thing.

The pejorative adjectives do nothing to support your case. You would object to being called a "Gun-toting warmongering reckless Republican psycopath", so let's both leave the insults at home and talk about the issues.

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...the Second Amendment...

We've been over that in other threads about a million times. It depends on how you look at it. I'm happy to leave the interpretation of that to the Supreme Court and abide by the laws, rather than taking upon myself to disagree and act as if I had a personal exemption from our country's laws.

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"Don't like guns? DON'T OWN ONE"

Both of these slogans have an implicit statement behind them - LEAVE ME ALONE.

Sounds great to me, if the gun owners would leave me alone as well. I have no desire to interefere in people's lives. Equally, I would like to have a much smaller chance of being shot by someone that doesn't respect my right to be left alone.

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Finally, before you dismiss me as some kind of gun-nut whacko, please see This, and This.

I hate to say it, but those links actually reinforce the negative stereotypes people have about "gun-nut whacko" people. Most moderate, sensible folks probably find them fairly extremist and disturbing.

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Self-defense is a fundamental human right. I think it is highly arrogant of you to advocate the depriving of others of that right.

There are a number of issues with that. I'm not depriving you of your right to self defense. I would love to see sensible gun laws that weren't un-enforceable or impractical. But I question how far the need for firepower really applies to self-defense. In another thread, people questioned the "1 handgun per month" rule. How many handguns does it take to defend yourself?

Earlier in the thread you challenged me on some children that died in a home violence incident with an intruder. I gave a number of examples of children killed by unsecured guns in the home. You never responded to those situations. How does the right to self-defense apply there?

[AggieDave 6]

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How many teenagers have been shot to death in the USA in the last 24 hours

Counting the ones I shot for driving while talking on their cellphones, or just the others?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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they don't have much hunting use

I take my 9mm pig (boar) hunting and I personally know people who big game hunt with handguns.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skreamer 1]

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I take my 9mm pig (boar) hunting

Dude, there has GOT to be a better way to get laid!!!

[jfields 0]

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I take my 9mm pig (boar) hunting and I personally know people who big game hunt with handguns.

Okay. Would you acknowledge that the main differences between handguns and rifles are portability and concealability? How would you compare the long-range accuracy of pistols and rifles? If you were to pick one weapon to use to hunt to reliably feed your family, what would it be? My money is on the rifle.

You got me on the nit-pick detail, but do you agree that in general, rifles and shotguns have a more functional role on the average farm or rural area than handguns? The context of what I said was actually my agreeing that gun laws ought to fit the situations of the region, and that rural vs urban was a major issue.

[AggieDave 6]

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Dude, there has GOT to be a better way to get laid!!!

Hey, you've got to have a method and this one works...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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I take my 9mm pig (boar) hunting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dude, there has GOT to be a better way to get laid!!!

He deals with what he has. When all you have is a short barrel, you use it.

[AggieDave 6]

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If you were to pick one weapon to use to hunt to reliably feed your family, what would it be? My money is on the rifle.

Actually, I think I'd choose my truck, I saw 5 very very nice bucks on the road on my way home from Eloy, I could have swerved just a bit and had some good eat'n...

I can hit a golf-ball sized object at 25 yards with my pistol, but I'm in the minority on that one, but yeah, depending on the game, I would use a rifle. But then again, usually when I hunt for my family I use a shopping cart and a check book, but that's just me...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."