Vallerina 2 #51 January 7, 2003 Quote don't know what you mean exactly by wired different, but it could be that (I know I'm stretching here) that it's the thrill seeking that causes the wiring. An example would be Alzheimer's disease. They noticed that people with this disease have higher levels of aluminum in their brain. They are not sure which causes which. See....this is why I need to stop drinking so much (my other new year's resolution.) I forget all the details and just remember vague stuff. I know there was some study (surprise surprise) showing skydivers and such with something different (wrong) with their brains. Unfortunately, I don't think life experiences (except that one time I was dropped on my head) can change your biology around too much (learning, etc creates more connections, I think, but that's it.) Plus, I thought the end result was that the aluminum thing was a bunch of crap.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #52 January 7, 2003 Since you asked . . . I didn't choose to be gay. As a matter of fact I tried to fight it; it's a very long story. The truncated version . . . I went through a period of self-hatred, then when I realized there wasn't a damn thing I could do about my sexuality, decided to accept it and myself. When I came out at 18 I went through a period of being hated by almost everyone I knew including my Mother - she told everyone I was dead. I tried to run from all the anger and myself and guess what. I ran smack into gay me. I decided that I am who I am and if people don't like it, they could take a flying leap. I told my Mother and everyone else to kiss my ass. They could either accept me or not but I didn't give a rats behind anymore because I was tired of all the drama - I abhor drama. Most everyone came around and decided I wasn't a freak - well not for being gay, I do pierce my body parts after all In the end my sexuality is part of who I am not all of who I am. Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #53 January 7, 2003 Quotedon't know what you mean exactly by wired different, but it could be that (I know I'm stretching here) that it's the thrill seeking that causes the wiring. Just to prove there are no original topics here, read this. Also, check out The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker. The nature/nurture thing comes down to an initial condition (genetics) followed by chaotic inputs (environment). As we all know from fractal/chaos theory, the odds of two identical outcomes given an indentical initial condition is approximately zero. To answer the original question, the child has the same genes, so the same predisposition, but will never have the same environment, but no one knows for sure how much the gene influences the outcome of being gay. If you have black hair, your genes influenced that probably 100%, but "gayness" is all lot less understood. _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickDraw 0 #54 January 7, 2003 Quote I heard about this cloned baby to a lesbian couple - does that mean the baby will also be a lesbian? Not if it's a boy. -- Hope you don't die. -- I'm fucking winning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #55 January 7, 2003 Simple answer: It's a choice. Not so simple answer: If it were genetic, there would be no homosexuals. Lack of breeding would have made them extinct a long time ago. Complicated answer: Read the not so simple answer, think about it, and try to defend against it. You can't.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #56 January 7, 2003 QuoteIf it were genetic, there would be no homosexuals. Lack of breeding would have made them extinct a long time ago. I personally know someone who had a congenital defect that left him unable to procreate - essentially born with a vasectomy. I am not 100% sure that it was purely genetic and not environmental (many birth defects are actually a result of something going wrong in the womb rather than "predestined" at the moment of conception), but I am PRETTY sure that it was genetic. BMcD... ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #57 January 7, 2003 Keith, thankyou for your honest response and insight, as usual. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #58 January 7, 2003 >Not if it's a boy. If it's a clone, it's a girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #59 January 7, 2003 QuoteSimple answer: It's a choice. Not so simple answer: If it were genetic, there would be no homosexuals. Lack of breeding would have made them extinct a long time ago. Complicated answer: Read the not so simple answer, think about it, and try to defend against it. You can't. What about Mongoloids? (not comparing gays to retarded people, just addressing the logic, ok?) Few mentally retarded people have kids (I work for the exceptions). However, there is quite a number born every year. There are certain differences that occur widely, even though the gene is not passed through a parent. Also, there is a wide variety of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. I don't think that they are influenced by other bird/animals or make a "choice". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #60 January 7, 2003 QuoteSimple answer: It's a choice. Not so simple answer: If it were genetic, there would be no homosexuals. Lack of breeding would have made them extinct a long time ago. Complicated answer: Read the not so simple answer, think about it, and try to defend against it. You can't. Suppose you are right that it isn't genetic. It does not necessarily follow that it is choice. I never chose to be straight. When I entered puberty & started having sexual feelings, I had them for girls, not boys. I assume its the same for gay & bisexual people. There are other possibilities too. Just one possibility: prenatal exposure to an excess or lack of some type of hormone may affect brain development in some way. no evidence for this as far as I know, I'm merely trying to point out that there are many more than two possible explanations for what influences sexual orientation. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverbrian 0 #61 January 7, 2003 Quote If it were genetic, there would be no homosexuals. Lack of breeding would have made them extinct a long time ago. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A GENETIC SCIENTIST Genetics is a little understood science, but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary on this one. Blue eyes, blonde hair, etc. There are chromosomes on the DNA strand that when paired, create certain features (or behaviors, or mental capacities, etc.). Others function alone. Science is just figuring out what certain chromosomes do, and I'm sure it's a tough job. There is evidence to suggest that the gay/straight trait is found on a chromosome (the 27th, I think). But to get back to Kevin's original question... if they can figure out how to clone living organisms, how come they can't figure out what all the chromosomes are for and how to fix/replace the bad ones. For instance, some straight men are horrible dressers and couldn't decorate their homes to save their lives. What if they could have the "gay" chromosome implanted? Then they'd be FABULOUS [/Christopher Lowell voice] at such things and the world would be more beautiful! edited for Christopher Lowell's voice. Thanks AggieDave! In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #62 January 7, 2003 Quote FABULOUS Sorry, but that has me rolling in laughter, of course I "heard" that in my head with a Christopher Lowell voice...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #63 January 7, 2003 QuoteFor instance, some straight men are horrible dressers and couldn't decorate their homes to save their lives. What if they could have the "gay" chromosome implanted? Then they'd be FABULOUS at such things and the world would be more beautiful! You're gonna get flamed. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #64 January 7, 2003 Quote For instance, some straight men are horrible dressers and couldn't decorate their homes to save their lives. What if they could have the "gay" chromosome implanted? Then they'd be FABULOUS at such things and the world would be more beautiful! LMAO!!! Peeps, you gotta admit, that was funny.Thanks Brian and so true. I have absolutely no eye for decorating. When my apartment was being remodeled this past summer, I asked my sister to design the whole thing because her house looks awesome. Well she did, and my apartment is styling! The only problem is...maybe some people will think I'm gay...j/k. And Keith dude, you've got guts. The stereotype of gay men has always been that they are sissies. Yet I think what you guys go through and face takes alot of guts. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #65 January 7, 2003 Quote You're gonna get flamed. Only if people can stop laughing long enough I'd imagine the genetics of being gay are kind of like those of being beautiful. Some people are naturally very much that way, others work really hard to get there. Identical twins can look different from each other if they choose, and when they're raised apart they are often different. But not entirely. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #66 January 7, 2003 I am a psychologist by education and a pharmaceutical researcher by trade and I've studies this issue extensively. The studies that came out in the past decade or so that touted the so-called "gay gene" were fundamentally flawed. Well, perhaps that is too strong. The interpretations of the data/results that were made by the media -which is largely pro-homosexual- were too far reaching. The research in question was started with a gay physician who autopsied the brains of several sets of deceased male twins, one of whom in each set was gay. The research found that in some of the cases, there were neurological abnormalities found in the gay twin that were not found in the straight twin and surmised that PERHAPS genetics played some role in sexual orientation. HOWEVER, this researcher CLEARLY stated that his sample size was TOO SMALL to conclude anything from the study. Also, as with all research, the results needed to replicated, that is, confirmed in other studies by others. This has not really been done yet. To be frank, the pro-homosexual movement first declared that sexual orientation was hormonally regulated, siting evidence that the pituitary gland in some gays was different structurally and chemically from straights. However, when that theory was disproved, they latched onto the "gay gene" theory, which in my opinion will also be disproved. It is easy to say that one is gay due to genetics simply because it is an easy out. If it is biologically determined, then the stigma of "immorality" disappears. But, studies have shown that there is some sort of genetic predisposition to alcoholism. Does that make alcoholism licit? Don't think so. One last thing, sorry for the long post, but in 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from their official list of psychiatric disorders. However, they did so only due to militant pro-homosexual lobbying, not as a result sound research, but due to lobbying. Sorry folks, what is and is not a disorder is not something open for the democratic process. It is a matter of imperical research. I do agree, however, that attempting to change one's orientation, while not impossible (I've seen it done but you won't see that talked about in the mainstream media)it is exceedingly difficult, especially when we are talking about deep seated desires and habitual behaviors. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #67 January 7, 2003 Quote Just out of curiousity - and call me a moron if you will, but is your sexual preference in your DNA? I was curious, I heard about this cloned baby to a lesbian couple - does that mean the baby will also be a lesbian? Kevin I am a LESBIAN trapped in a MAN's body!From top to bottom, the female form is what I am Genentically prediposed to be actracted to. LOve, -Grant_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #68 January 7, 2003 QuoteHowever, they did so only due to militant pro-homosexual lobbying, not as a result sound research, but due to lobbying. Moralistic hogwash. What research would determine if a lifestyle was a "disorder" or not? It's political one way or the other. _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #69 January 8, 2003 Moralistic hogwash?? What about those who "choose" to abuse drugs and are addicted? What about compulsive gamblers or sex addicts? Are these also merely lifestyle choices? Is it wrong to conclude that such conditions or "lifestyle choices" are called disorders due to political agendas? What about the schizophrenic who "chooses" to not take his medications, which is certainly his right, and as a result, decompensates, becomes paranoid, and lives as a reclusive homeless man? Is it political, moralistic hogwash to say that such "choices" are dysfunctional? Don't get me wrong... many gays are VERY functional, many times even very wealthy and socially graced. I'm not saying that they can't do what they wish... I am all for personal freedom and responsibility. And I certainly respect Keith's honest post. He echoes the sentiments of many of my gay friends. It is a difficult thing and many have chosen to take their lives by suicide b/c of all the difficulties and intolerances that have come their way. One last thing... I firmly believe that one can hold beliefs, opinions, etc., such as "homosexuality is not right" or "it is a disorder" that may be contrary to the way another lives their lives, yet still respect them and treat them as persons who are worthy of dignity. As Keith himself said, gay is not the totality of his being, it is just a part of who he is. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #70 January 8, 2003 Quote>If it's a clone, it's a girl. Not necessarily. There are numerous genetic defects of the 23rd chromosome pair that express a phenotype different from the genotype. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #71 January 8, 2003 Quote And Keith dude, you've got guts. Yeah, well, I get that from my overbearing, dominant, butch Mother j/kKeith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #72 January 8, 2003 LOL! Good one -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #73 January 8, 2003 Oh no! I'm late joining the fray. Well, at least I have the excuse of WORKING WHILE I'M AT WORK! Anyway, my answer to the question about a gay gene: I don't know! I'm not blessed by the omniscience most people seem to have. I don't know more about genetics than the genetic scientists do so I'm not qualified to have an opinion. However, the interesting claim that homosexuality is or is not a choice is something I can respond to. Having homosexual desires is not moderated by choice. One doesn't choose to want something. However, acting upon ones desires is a choice. One chooses to screw around with the object of one's desires. This is very important and hardly anyone breaks it apart this way. DESIRE IS NOT CHOSEN but ACTION IS CHOSEN. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajun 0 #74 January 8, 2003 Quote This is very important and hardly anyone breaks it apart this way. DESIRE IS NOT CHOSEN but ACTION IS CHOSEN. That is a very good point. I think you hit the proverbial head on the nail with that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #75 January 8, 2003 I would imagine it has little to do with DNA, since all gay people were born of at least mometarily hetrosexual parents until the test tube came along, and for around 10% of the population to be gay, DNA doesn't sound like the cause. I think its more like being a golfer or an accountant or an artist or a bricklayer. It's something you discover you're drawn to, good at etc. I think it chooses you more than you, your DNA or your lifestyle chooses it. I'm imagining and I'm thinking. Hell. I don't even know why I do most things or why. Seemed like a good idea at the time? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
