Another Reason I Don't Vote

[Guest]

Outrage

In previous threads, some people have said, "If you don't vote, you can't change the system."

Once again, I quote Claire Wolfe:

"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."

"When that state is used as a tool against me, there is no longer any reason why I should owe any allegiance to that state."

Still want gun control?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[wlie 0]

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"If you don't vote, you can't change the system."

Sadly, the best we can do is accept the lesser idiot, because a write-in vote is no better than a thrown vote. IMO.

Do you think his case is legit?

I seriously think that incompetence and stupidity should be left for the experts in corporate America so that scandals (Enron, WorldCom, ++) will be exposed. Give an imbecile authority, and you take out every oz. of their common sense. And it's not like they had a lot to begin with.

My other ride is the relative wind.

[jfields 0]

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In previous threads, some people have said, "If you don't vote, you can't change the system."

And I stand by the comment.

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Still want gun control?

Yes.

First, how does your not voting do anything to change the type of "Outrage" you linked to in that TSA hassle story?

Second, how does gun control factor into that situation at all? Going to start shooting up the security people? They might be jerks, but is that a better answer?

Finally, the conclusion that the incident directly caused a breach baby is a farce. Stress may be a factor, but putting the blame on them for what may have happened anyway is just silly.

[sunman 0]

The current two-party system is a joke and a mockery of democracy. Only those who please big business and special interest groups have a chance. But you can get information about ALL the candidates (there are usually more than two) and their issues at www.votesmart.org. You might even find somebody you don't hate. A vote for a third-party candidate is not a throw-away vote, even if they don't win. It's one more vote to tip the scales away from the two-party monopoly. If enough people do it, maybe we won't need to start a bloody revolution.

[DYEVOUT 0]

"Still want gun control?"
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More than anything. I work on it all the time.

Faster target acquisition, rapid fire accuracy, etc...

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[Guest]

You'll feel differently when the JBTs have migrated from airports to your front door, but by then it'll be way too late.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jfields 0]

Mark,

I don't like the ridiculous expansion of governmental powers and intrusion on privacy any more than you do. But where we differ is in what we choose to do about it.

I choose to vote and work with the systems under which our country was founded.

Getting hysterical, predicting more doom than Nostradmus, and citing gun ownership as the answer for all society's problems doesn't do anything to help.

I'm not worried about people showing up at my door. I've done nothing to merit it. Even if they did, maintaining a cool head and not brandishing my home arsenal would probably be more effective anyway.

Since you aren't voting, what are you personally doing to fix the situation?

[Guest]

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I'm not worried about people showing up at my door. I've done nothing to merit it.

"In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- Pastor Martin Niemöller

Oh wait, he's a Christian - never mind.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[wlie 0]

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A vote for a third-party candidate is not a throw-away vote, even if they don't win. It's one more vote to tip the scales away from the two-party monopoly.

True. Very true. But what if the 3rd guy seems less than adequate for the job? It should not come as a surprise that the 2 parties will collaborate to crush the 3rd guy. At the very least, hurt their image. Thus decreasing our confidence level.

It'd be interesting to have in place of hving to vote FOR someone, we have the option to vote AGAINST one. Similar to the SAT - answering a question wrong could cost you more than not answering the question. Isn't that afterall what our elected public officials do best when faced with a tough question?

What would be ideal (IMO) would to to rate each candidate on each issue and their plan on how they are going to address them. Than use the YES/NO on new stuff they plan to introduce during their office. This would be more like how one is graded in school - graded against specific measures, yet given the opportunity to earn bonus points based on creativity and critical thinking.

My other ride is the relative wind.

[jfields 0]

Once again, you miss the point. I am "speaking up", by voting, for one. I am working to prevent the problem through our democracy, while also taking the practical measure of not doing stupid things to bring attention to myself.

What are YOU doing to remedy the situation? So far, I've heard nothing. Show me where I'm wrong.

[wlie 0]

I guess what jfields is saying Mark, is...

People all over the world
Join hands
Start love train
Love train

Everytime I watch Bill Von's 300 way video I feel good.

My other ride is the relative wind.

[jfields 0]

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I guess what jfields is saying Mark, is...

People all over the world
Join hands
Start love train
Love train

Heh!
Or, more accurately, STFU and do something, instead of whining about it.

[Push 0]

Here's an experience my Dad had when he flew into the US (he works for a company there). He was 41 at the time, a little overweight but definitely not obese, balding. He wore a suit, had a briefcase and a laptop. When going home, he was stopped in the airport. They told him to turn on his laptop, so he did. After seeing it boot up, they put him in detention for 3 hours for no reason and confiscated the laptop and briefcase. They searched him several times. When he got the laptop back it was opened, some of the screws were missing, and it did not boot up. His stuff in the briefcase was messed up and some of it was given back in a bag, they didn't even bother shoving it back into the case. Thankfully, the harddisk on the laptop was not destroyed, so his work did not suffer. In fact, if I remember correctly, they forgot to plug the main power cord back.

This happened more than a year before 9-11.

I don't think the problem is with controlling civilians. It's more along the lines of stupid people in powerful positions. They're not trying to control anyone, they're just being themselves - stupid. Unless the quality of their job education rises this will not go away.

The most secure airline is the Israeli El Al. I've lived in Israel and have flown it several times. Nothing like this happens with El Al, only with the US. Seems to me that your country is plagued first and foremost by stupidity and a remarkable lack of common sense.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Guest]

Perhaps I am missing the point...

What am I doing to remedy the situation? Prevent the problem? NOTHING. It's too late to "remedy" or prevent it - it's already happened. That incident is just one small, isolated case. How many more cases of Gestapo behavior on the part of the TSA go unreported out of fear? And it's only just beginning. Today, it's the airport terminals. How long before it's the local shopping mall?

How would you feel if it had happened to you? Think it can't/won't just because you're being careful not to "do something stupid"? How about if you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time, not doing anything? Ever been busted? I have, and it was for doing exactly NOTHING. I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was eventually dismissed, but I spent a day in jail and had to hire a lawyer.

And that was just local police detectives, not unaccountable feds, and it was before the so-called "Patriot Act" and the rest of those damned Reichstag Fire lies they're pumping out every day.

You seem to be of the opinion that we don't have enough government, but I tell you that the federal government is an out-of-control MONSTER, accountable only to wealthy special interests, and not to us. What possible reason do we have to threaten war with Iraq?

Do you really think those assholes in the bureaucracy are intimidated by your little ol' vote?

In another thread, I mentioned how the ICA (Immigration / Customs / Agriculture) area of an international terminal is a no-man's-land, where you have absolutely no rights whatsoever. That has now been expanded to cover the entire AIRPORT. Yes, when you enter an airport now, you leave your citizenship at the door, and your "rights" no longer apply.

ps - None of this is meant to be personal, BTW.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jfields 0]

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What am I doing to remedy the situation? Prevent the problem? NOTHING.

Why not? You are a pretty vocal critic of the government. Is it all hot air? Are you willing to do anything to help, or just be a sideline heckler? What you choose to do is up to you, but if you care, do something.

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How would you feel if it had happened to you? Think it can't/won't just because you're being careful not to "do something stupid"?

I would be pretty annoyed if it happened to me. So I can work to get the laws that we both dislike changed or repealed. At the same time, I'm using my brain and not painting a gigantic "kick me" sign on my back.

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but I tell you that the federal government is an out-of-control MONSTER

I agree with you there.

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Do you really think those assholes in the bureaucracy are intimidated by your little ol' vote?

Actually, yes. My "little ol' vote" can take them right out of power, when combined with other individual little votes. The person they don't care about is you, since you are waiving your say, however small it may be.

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ps - None of this is meant to be personal, BTW.

Of course not.

[wlie 0]

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I don't think the problem is with controlling civilians. It's more along the lines of stupid people in powerful positions. They're not trying to control anyone, they're just being themselves - stupid. Unless the quality of their job education rises this will not go away.

Halleluja! Exactly what I was trying to point out in the first place.

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The most secure airline is the Israeli El Al.

Is it true that El Al doesn't have pretty stewardesses? They have big burly dudes instead serving passengers and if they get out of line, the BBDs are authorized to throw them out of the plane so they'll get sucked into the jet engines?

My other ride is the relative wind.

[wlie 0]

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How would you feel if it had happened to you? Think it can't/won't just because you're being careful not to "do something stupid"?

I would be pretty annoyed if it happened to me. So I can work to get the laws that we both dislike changed or repealed. At the same time, I'm using my brain and not painting a gigantic "kick me" sign on my back.

Or you could make like Bruce Willis and Yippie KaJe MF! (just kidding)

My other ride is the relative wind.

[Guest]

Hear, hear!

The trouble is it's not practical to run a system like El Al (which I have flown on and was duly interviewed both at JFK on the way out and at Tel-Aviv on the way back), but we can sure learn some lessons from them.

I guess my biggest problem is the mindless, one-size-fits-all bureaucracy enforced by a bunch of clueless thugs.

For the record, I served the govt for 16 years, the last two of which were with US Customs.

I was worried about it when I left over five years ago.

Now I'm REALLY worried, especially because there are people in charge who are a law unto themselves and have absolutely no accountability (when was the last time you ever heard of the government finding themselves guilty of anything?).

What worries me more is that there are some citizens who think we cannot govern ourselves as the founders intended, and must therefore be disarmed so as to be more easily intimidated into complying with government mandates.

A friend of mine wrote this inflammatory piece. I disagree with his attitude towards voting, and some of it is paranoid, but I pretty much identify with the rest of it:

"I Am a Rifleman"
an essay by
Jack Foote

Charles Camden wrote: "A friend and I engaged in an interesting debate: What if martial law was declared, and you had to choose between surrender and interment in a camp, or you could go out fighting? My friend's position was that he would go out fighting and kill himself or make the opposition kill him; I took the stance of surrender when the odds are insurmountable, since if you are dead you can not fight any longer but if you are a prisoner there is always the chance of escape and linking up with a resistance movement."

Jack replied:

It IS a very real possibility, given that the feds have constructed an outrageous number of "training" prisoner-of-war camps across the US, ostensibly for the benefit of military Reserve, National Guard, and Military Police units, who otherwise would lack the practiced skills to properly maintain the security of such a facility. One has to wonder, though, just who they intend to practice on.

I was stationed at Camp Parks, outside of San Francisco, for 2 of my 14 years in the Army. Not many of the locals in the immediate area of the camp (Dublin, CA) were aware of the large federal prison on the post. It was the home of Stacey Koontz (the LA goon cop properly convicted of violating the Civil Rights of the lowlife scumbag Rodney King), among others. My duty assignment had nothing to do with the prison, but it was hard to miss from the All Ranks Club at the top of the hill.

During my monthly drill weekends and during the 2 to 3 weeks of summer Annual Training it was impossible not to wonder why that prison would not have made an ideal training ground for all of the above stated needs and why we needed all of these other "training" POW camps. After all, the prisoners were already there to "practice" on at Camp Parks, unlike the other facilities, which for now sit empty and waiting to be filled. Martial Law was always on the table as an option for Y2K, in the event that civil unrest occurred. Thank God that it did not come to that, but those POW "training" camps are all still there.

I served as an officer for a total of 14 years in the Army, both Active Duty and Reserve, but I would not hesitate to use deadly force to resist tyranny, regardless of which uniform brings it to my door. I would rather die than face a single minute in one of those "lingering death" camps. It pains me to think that I might have to bear arms against my brethren, my brothers-in-arms, should the imposition of Martial Law occur, but the absolute neccessity of doing so is clear in my mind.

Martial Law is, by definition, the absence of Constitutional Law and therefore the absence of any law other than the law of brute force. It is War by the Government against its own people. To surrender to it is to forfeit one's Liberty. To resist it, even at the cost of one's life, is Liberty defined. The purpose of internment during Martial Law is not to make the citizenry safer, it is to make the government safer from its citizens by destroying their will to resist. To imagine that one can enter one of these places and emerge later ready to "join the resistance" is sheer idiocy. You don't emerge, you submit to a servile halter for the rest of your days. You die. The best defense against the lazy expedience of Martial Law imposed by a tyrannical wannabe despot like Klinton is each and every one of us that calls himself a Rifleman.

The Rifleman has been throughout history, and continues to be unto this day, the Ultimate Weapon. Far more terrifying to the would-be dictator than mass rioting, the most powerful nuclear warheads, or the worst form of biological or chemical weapon, he remains the absolute guarantee of Freedom. Freedom to choose, freedom to resist, freedom to fight, freedom to say, "No! I will not! " He says to his enemies, the enemies of Freedom and Justice, "You have chosen War against us as the means to resolve your differences and impose your will. If War is your choice, then we will give you all of it you can stomach!" And he does.

I sometimes have to force myself out of bed on cold Saturday early mornings to drive the hour or so to the range for practice. If it's too windy or rainy for good shooting, I might turn around and drive home rather than waste the ammo, but I make the trip out regardless, at least twice a month. Sometimes I am the only soul on the firing line, dutifully observing all of the range safety rules even though there is no one about to chide me for failing to do so. I am the one whose heart is warmed by each ever-so-slightly tighter group, though the air may be damp and chill. I am the one who carefully picks up his empty brass at the end of the one-man shoot, bags the trash that I did not even produce, inspects the target holders to ensure that they are serviceable, replaces the ones that are not, marks his name on the Range Use Board, and faithfully turns out any lights and shuts the gate as he leaves. I am the one who drives home weary but satisfied, yet yearning for a little bit better performance each time.

I am the one striving for impossible perfection. I am the even wearier soul that dutifully cleans his weapon, either at the range before leaving or at home immediately upon returning, and does a complete breakdown of the weapon and all of the high-cap mags that I spent my hard-earned money on and that the Diane Feinsteins, Bill Klintons, Adolf Hitlers, and Josef Stalins of the world hate so very much to see in my hands. I am the one who stores his prized rifles many hour later and carefully secures them from anyone else who might want to put their hands on them when I am not around to put a boot up their behind for daring to do so.

I am patient, for it is the first and most important virute for the practice of my craft. I am diligent, for I understand that my equipment can take care of me only if I take proper care of it. I am as true to my beliefs as my bullet is to its mark, unerring and unswerving. I am also waiting, as my forefathers waited on Bunker Hill, along Seminary Ridge, at Pusan, and at Lang Ve and Ke Sanh.

I am waiting, all you spoiled, rotten, vermin-ridden Liberal cowards, for a TARGET. Don't make the mistake of offering me one.

I am a Rifleman.

There are fewer true Riflemen in the US today than at any time in our entire history. There was once a time when foreign armies feared the prospect of a land war against us, for we were at once both legend and legion. Those times are past, but those values are not, at least not for me and other Riflemen.

Those who would protest that they believe as I do should live by the following if they wish to become Riflemen: If you hold your Liberty dear, you will learn to hold a rifle steady enough to hit your target. Choose your words as carefully as you choose your weapon, for you will not be welcome in every house (unless maybe if you live in Texas, which is where I reside). You will be humble among your peers, proud on your own, and quiet in the company of those that would seek to destroy you and your rights. You will pick up a voter's registration form before you pick up your first firearm. You will fill it out and submit it before your firearm is ready to go home with you. You will buy and install a long gun storage locker in your home in the meantime.

Being a Rifleman is much more than simply owning a rifle. It is owning your responsibility. In addition to your responsibility for safe and proper use and storage of your rifle, you also have the responsibility for the arduous task of practice. After that is more practice, and after that is even more practice. Practice, practice, practice. You must accept the fact that you will NEVER be "good enough", only that you will be better each time.

You have the repsonsibility of never accepting compromise when it comes to the preservation of your rights. If your political leadership fails in this regard, organize and elect new leaders. Accept such leadership yourself if you have the honor of being so selected. Finally, after you have become the best shot of your group of fellows, after you have scored more points, won more matches, and accumulated more trophies than anyone else you know, after you have campaigned and spoken out on the issues we all hold dear, after you have voted for good leadership and spoken out against the bad, you are still not yet a Rifleman until you have taken the last step towards that title: you must find another and teach them to become one of us. You must give of your time and talent to bring another Rifleman into the fold. Then and only then can you truly call yourself a Rifleman, for one of us is a danger to tyranny, but two of us is terror itself to the enemies of Liberty.



There is an old joke among Infantrymen, which I proudly served with in the Army:

There are 7000 enemy soldiers encamped in a small valley. They are well armed, well fed, and of high morale. They are certain in their belief that they are invincible.

One day high upon a ridge a lone figure appears. It is a tattered, gaunt, and unshaven young US Army Infantryman who has obviously not had a good meal in a very long time. He shouts down at his enemies, "I am a Rifleman! I am the Infantry! I am the meanest, toughest, nastiest sonovabitch that has ever walked the face of the Earth and all you bastards are gonna die!" With that, he turns and disappears over the ridge.

The enemy Commandant is mildly annoyed by this brashness and brazeness and calls for the Sergeant of the Guard. He orders a patrol be sent out to squash this insect and that it be done quickly, as he does not want his dinner to be spoiled by another such outburst. The Sergeant of the Guard obeys and dispatches just one squad of ten men to go and take care of this, for as he says, "It is only one man."

An hour later the sounds of slow, distinct rifle shots can be heard in the distance, accompanied by the stacatto of automatic weapons fire and screams, followed by silence. Confident that the task has been properly completed, the Sergeant of the Guard awaits the patrol's return. Instead, a half hour later, he spies the same lone Rifleman on the same distant ridge, yelling the same taunts down upon his godless enemies.

Frantic and seeing the mild annoyance on his Commandant's face turn severe reproach, the Sergeant of the Guard orders out an entire company of 200 men to chase down and eliminate this unexpected foe. They rush outwards in the direction of the lone Rifleman and two hours later there are the distant sounds of a pitched battle being fought. There are the sounds of machine guns chatter, the thud of grenades, the screams of the dying, and again, the slow and steady rhythm of well-placed rifle fire.

The battle lasts well into the night, but three hours after the last of the sounds die down, the company does not return. Instead, the dawn's light shows only the bare behind of the lone Rifleman as he waggles it back and forth at his enemies. He repeats his taunts and disappears once again over the distant ridge.

The Commandant crosses over from reproach to livid fury. With his face flush red with anger and his spittle spraying outwards with each curse, he orders an entire battalion of 3000 men out to hunt down and utterly destroy this upstart American. As the rumble of their armored cars and tanks fade in the distance, he calms with the knowledge that his foe is now woefully outmatched.

Nearly half a day goes by before the radio crackles to life with reports of contact and the distant sounds of battle once again echo through the small valley. The fierce sounds of Claymore mines, rocket launchers, and heavy machine guns wash over the meadows and streams in wave after wave of deadly delivery. Through it all there is again the slow and steady rate of rifle fire that had been the undercurrent to the previous two battles. Then, suddenly, there is silence.

The Sergeant of the Guard and the Commandant meet at the edge of their encampment the next morning to await the return of the victorious battalion. They are stunned to see one lone, ragged, bleeding figure approaching them on foot, barely able to take each step. It is one of their own troops, horribly wounded and pale. He collapses at the feet of the two incredulous men and with his dying breath he gasps, "It is a trick, there are TWO of them!"

Have a nice day. --Jack

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"Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

--Italian proverb

Yeah, stand in the airport, beat your chest, and holler about your rights.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[skygod7777 0]

good, i'm not the only one who doesn't vote. but i don't realy have a reason not to, i just don't

later

[wmw999 2,584]

Um -- aren't you still 17?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skygod7777 0]

no, i turned 19 last november 17.

later

[wmw999 2,584]

Ah; my bad. Why don't you vote? And what could you actually, reasonably, do to make the world a place you think is better?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skygod7777 0]

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Ah; my bad.

it's ok, i just can't let anyone cut me short

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Why don't you vote?

i don't know, i just don't, maybe it's because my dad tells me i should, i don't know.

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reasonably

noooooo, you said the bad word.

later

[kallend 2,146]

What am I doing to remedy the situation? Prevent the problem? NOTHING.

[Guest]

That is an excellent idea.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."