anti-depressants, etc.

[SpeedRacer 1]

What do people here think about all the mood-altering medication nowadays?

I am no expert on this stuff. But I think anti-depressants, ritalin, etc. may have their place for people with serious chemical imbalances in their brains, but do you think they are being over-used?

I have heard about people using them just to deal with their day-to-day emotional setbacks in life, and I don't think that's right. It seems to me that you (assuming you have a healthy brain) are better off in the long run learning how to manage your emotional state all by yourself.

My nephew has been having a hard time in school, life, etc. lately due in part because, 1) he and his Dad (my brother), were involved in a bus crash last February, in which he was uninjured but my brother suffered a brain injury and has spent the last year recovering from it (he's mostly better now, still walks with a limp). And the other issue is he's fourteen, which is a difficult time anyway.

So anyway his Mom, my brother's ex-wife, has him on zoloft. This seems to be the trend now but I'm just not comfortable with all this easy reliance on drugs.

Speed Racer
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[PhreeZone 20]

I fully believe in them and while there are some instances of over usage, for the msot part I would'nt want to be someone that needed them and was denied simply since people though they were being abused by other people.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jfields 0]

I got thoroughly bashed in a previous thread for being unsympathetic to those with psychological issues, but I agree with you.

While they do have valid uses, I think lots of drugs are way overprescribed. It has almost become a first choice, instead of finding out if there is really a deeper issue. Maybe cheap drugs and insurance lead people to take the easy way out. I don't know...

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

have heard about people using them just to deal with their day-to-day emotional setbacks in life, and I don't think that's right. It seems to me that you (assuming you have a healthy brain) are better off in the long run learning how to manage your emotional state all by yourself.

Totally agree...noone has it easy at that age. Just look at how popular all the teen movies decade after decade that deal with that period of life are. On the one hand, if someone can feel better and that's what they and their parents want, who are we to tell them no. On the other, the cliche, "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is true. If instead of dealing with the emotional turmoil you go through at that age you suppress it, how do you handle it when you're 40 with 3 kids getting divorced and out of work?

[blewaway5 0]

I think that there are moments when they are necessary, but I totally think they are way over-used. It actually really annoys me when so many kids get put on the shit. By most people's standards today I could have used some when I was young. Instead I played outside, a lot, and had my mom busting my ass if I screwed around with the school work. She knew I'd get into all kinds of stuff, and if it didn't hurt anything other than her sense of patience she didn't care. Seems to have worked out okay since I'm alive and doing fine, not to mention I did just fine in school once it became apparent that it would be good for my well being to buckle down and do it. I managed to get good score on my ACT's and my ASVAB and all that crap, and I did ok at college. Point is, I think a lot (notice I didn't say all) of the time these drugs are just an excuse for parents not controling their kids.

Truman Sparks for President

[Michele 1]

My concern is his age...and the data not being there for valid tests and whatnot on children his age. There are considerable issues in the developing brain that we just simply don't understand, and I also think that lots of people use them when they are not necessary or as a treatment which is "easier" than another.

Brain chemistry is a funky thing which we just don't know enough about. What I do think is appropriate is using meds like that as a last resport, and not having them prescribed by an md, but only by a psychiatrist, and only while under care of said psychiatrist. Additional safeguards should include a regular re-evaluation of the situation on a regular basis - not a year later, nor even 6 months later, more like every 90 days.

That being said, in an adult under correct circumstances and as indicated by symptomology, they are an invaluable treatment aid, which will allow someone to get back on their feet after a hard hit and start to repair their lives.

Ceils-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[dropdeded 0]

I fully believe in them and while there are some instances of over usage, for the msot part I would'nt want to be someone that needed them and was denied simply since people though they were being abused by other people.
__________________________________________________
Someone very close to me has to take some pretty strong anti-depressants.Its hard to understand how these people can feel so depressed when personally,I try to see even the worst of situations as either temporary or at least acceptable.
I have seen people abuse the shit,just like everything else but If you need it,you need it.
I had to rush a loved one to the hospital with a slit wrist because this person had stopped taking what they NEED to take.
Its like pain medication,people abuse it and when someone HAS to take it for legitemit(sp?) reasons,especially from a lengthy problem,they are looked at as drug seekers.

edit> didnt catch that this was about the youngsters til I reread it.Went in a different direction,sorry



dropdeded

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The Dude Abides.
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[mujie96 0]

Overused I'd say. I'm sure they have their place but for the most part Americans seem to suffer form the delusion that we should all be shiny happy people all the time.
Life is HARD, really hard sometimes, but I think there are ways of coping that can and should be used before resorting to medication. I get depressed, I exercise, I get sane again. I really think that a lot of problems requiring mood altering medication stem from a the unhealthy way that people in our country live.
I'm no an expert on this subject, so please don't take offense-I just happen to know a friend or two who has made the effort to cope with diagnosed depression without using medication and succeeded.

Just keep swimming...just keep swimming....

[jfields 0]

Quote

in an adult under correct circumstances and as indicated by symptomology, they are an invaluable treatment aid

I agree completely. I saw someome I know go from being a totally incoherent, non-sensical, raving, incarcerated lunatic to being a warm friendly person again due to the right meds. The person has seen a number of various doctors and it took the right one to correctly diagnose her as being bipolar and act accordingly.

My objection is to the doctors that just prescribe like crazy, without getting histories of patients or trying anything else first. When seriously mind-altering drugs are the first response, rather than the last resort, we have a problem.

[SpeedRacer 1]

I have also had this experience. One day I was visiting some friends in Boston. I was driving my friend Dave somewhere, and he started talking about anti-depressants, actually RECOMMENDING them to me...(For some strange reason, he assumed that since he had been feeling depressed with his life, that I was, too...go figure)

He said, "I just know so many people who have turned their lives around this way" and he started describing how you take them long enough to get you out of your depression so you can get things done with your life, get a girlfriend, a better job, etc. And then you can stop taking them because, hey, now you've got the better job, the girlfriend, etc etc.

I told him I thought that was totally fucked, that medicine is for people who are actually sick, not for dealing with the normal day-to-day bullshit in life. And i should have also pointed out that nothing external (such as a better job, a gf, more money, etc.) will ever MAKE you happy. Happiness is something you DO, not something that falls on you from above due to external circumstances.

Speed Racer
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[Michele 1]

Quote

When seriously mind-altering drugs are the first response, rather than the last resort, we have a problem.

Which is why I believe that the additional parameters I noted would be a first step in managing the situation.

Problem seems to be twofold...like Mujie says, we're all supposed to be happy shiny people at all times, and at the first suggestion of difficulty, we run for a drug rather than a) experiencing the issue and learning and growing from it, and b) we have dr.'s who don't do their complete job, but bow instead to patient pressure, and give them what they want when they want it. Look at the situation with virii, I think...from what I understand, they don't respond to antibiotics, and yet they're prescribed because the patient really wants them (I could be wrong with my example, but the idea is there).

For those whose condition requires that anti-depressants and other brain chemical interactives are needed, I think that it needs to be far more affordable and workable. The social stigma about mental illness is huge still, and so for those who really need the help, it takes a ton to get them that help. I know - first hand.

So it's a culteral thing, a parental thing, and an economic thing. How does one start to battle that?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[wmw999 2,589]

My son is 19 now; when he was in 6th grade, it was suggested I have him evaluated for ADD. All I had to do was look at him, watch him (not) work, etc. to know that he was borderline ADD.

But his grades were good; he was just a little harder for the teachers to work with. The guidance counselor suggested that just like math is hard for some kids, organization would be hard for him, and that he'd be best off looking at it that way.

7th (and to a lesser extent 8, 9 & 10) grades really sucked. But with a lot of independent study, he really figured out what he needed to do in order to manage HIS life. He's very happy as a college sophomore in the honors program now. And he knows that lacks in his high school education are HIS problem, not anyone else's. I couldn't be prouder of him.

The moral of this story? Well, if you're mostly making it and could just enhance your life, you probably don't need it. People used to only go to the doctor if they were SICK; now they go if they have a cold. I'd like to keep the drugs for the people who need them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[happythoughts 0]

A normal person says "I'm just going to go do something about this depression." They have a store of "mental energy" to draw from. A truly depressed person does not have this.

An analygous situation is the difference between how energetic you feel when leaving work on Friday and going to work on Monday. "Wow, I can't wait to go do..." or "I can't get out of bed..."

For a person with real depression, getting out of bed, at all, on any day, can be an almost insurmountable task. The virtue of meds is that it limits your emotional range. Instead of a range of 1 to 10, it may be 4 to 6. That way, you lose the extreme highs, but also the devastating lows. Also, the high/low extremes in an emotional cycle.

Once the meds settle things out and day-to-day life is manageable, the root problems can be dealt with. If normal, healthy people don't understand, that is to be expected.

[Zennie 0]

Part of the problem, and disagreement, stems from differing points of view over what mental illness actually is. There are those, myself being one of them, who believe that mental illness (true mental illness) is a biochemical condition... no different than diabetes... except that the organ is the brain and the manifestation of the condition is in one's thoughts and behaviors. Being a biochemical condition, it is as treatable through medication as anyof the "traditional" illnesses that we think nothing of taking medication for.

And just like any other illness, there are very specific criteria for making a diagnosis. These criteria are laid out in the DSM-IV. For depression, these criteria are as follows:

Quote

DSM IV Criteria for Major Depressive Episode


A) Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure

Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations

1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.

2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)

3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.

4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day

5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)

6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day

7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)

8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)

9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

B) The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode

C) The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D) The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism)

E) The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.

When I went through my episode with the divorce, I had all 9 symptoms sustained for several weeks.

I knew something was seriously wrong. Everyone around me knew something was seriously wrong.

Antidepressants and intensive therapy made a tremendous difference.

I'm reaching a bit of a turning point now where my mood has stabilized to the point that I'm trying to wean myself off of the antidepressants.

Nobody that I know of likes having to be on meds. Just as with other medical conditions, some illnesses are episodic. Others are permanent.

It's very easy to be on the outside and say that physicians are relying too much upon drugs to treat mental illness... *real* mental illness. The implication of this statement, of course, is that the person relying on the drugs is "weak"... they aren't strong enough to deal with what everybody else has to deal with and are using the drugs as a crutch.

Well, unless you know that person intimately, you really don't know what they are going through internally. Some people can put on a good public face but are literally being eaten alive internally. I know a couple of people who comitted suicide, and I had absolutely no idea observing them externally that they were feeling that way.

Unless you have suffered from depression youself, you have absolutely no concept of what that person is going through. Do you know what it's like feel like there is no hope for the future? Do you know what it's like to not be able to sleep, or eat, for weeks on end? Do you know what it's like to feel completely, totally worthless? Do you know what it's like to want to die just to make the pain go away? I mean really want to die?

I do. And I can tell you two things:

1. Depression is very real. And it strikes the strong and weak alike.
2. Medication *does* make a difference. In my case it very well may have saved my life.

And perhaps more and more people are being diagnosed with depression and other illnesses because:
1. People are starting to accept that mental illess is a treatable disease; and
2. Our society is so dysfunctional that the end result is more screwed-up people.

All this said, I have gone close to 4 days now without being on antidepressants and my mood has remained pretty stable and upbeat. I've tried several times before and couldn't go more than a day. So maybe I'm getting over the hump.



I'm sure Justin saw this post coming a mile away.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Michele 1]

Thank you, Bill. Well said.

Zennie:

Quote

Do you know what it's like feel like there is no hope for the future? Do you know what it's like to not be able to sleep, or eat, for weeks on end? Do you know what it's like to feel completely, totally worthless? Do you know what it's like to want to die just to make the pain go away? I mean really want to die?

Yes. For years on end. Yes.


Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[dropdeded 0]

Anyone know if say,an ongoing illness or disease that kicks your ass day in and day out,with no foreseeable change, can actually trigger the chemical imballance that causes depression, or is that imballance something you are born with??


dropdeded

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The Dude Abides.
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[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Anyone know if say,an ongoing illness or disease that kicks your ass day in and day out,with no foreseeable change, can actually trigger the chemical imballance that causes depression, or is that imballance something you are born with??


dropdeded

I can give you two examples. First, brain injury scenarios. Car accidents and hook turns. Hammer your head into something and they give you drugs to control the brain swelling at first. For at least 6 months, your brain has massive mood swings. Crying from emotional pain to euphoria in 5 minutes.

Second case is bulimia. It throws the electrolyte imbalance into wild spins. Mind-bending headaches, lack of nutrition. Temporary emotional numbness and a high will turn to depression in 1 hour. Quite the roller coaster. The brain gets no chemicals or nutrition to function normally.

[jfields 0]

Quote

I'm sure Justin saw this post coming a mile away.

Zennie,

You aren't the type of person I'm referring to at all. It is those without the valid need, that don't have any or many of the symptoms, much less all of them, that I object to getting the medications. Some people look for the quickest easiest answer without even making sure they really have the problem. It is the cavalier attitude, rather than the medicines themselves, that frustrates me.

Quote

Antidepressants and intensive therapy

You hit the problem with everything you could. You were working on the causes at the same time you were working on the symptoms. It seems that very often, the causes get ignored because there is an easy medical solution to the continually supressing the symptoms.

Quote

Nobody that I know of likes having to be on meds.

Unfortunately, there are lots of people that don't care. They don't understand the seriousness of what they are doing. They just "get 'Zac'ed up" (their words) and leave it at that. The person in the example I gave (bipolar) HATES being on meds, but they honestly help her regulate a biochemical imbalance.

The fact that you see the medication as something transitory is a healthy mindset. I'm glad it helped you when you most needed it. I'm also glad you are doing well enough to start going without it.

[Jessica 0]

Quote

Unless you have suffered from depression youself, you have absolutely no concept of what that person is going through. Do you know what it's like feel like there is no hope for the future?

YEAH! Right on! Depression cheer!

Quote

I got thoroughly bashed in a previous thread for being unsympathetic to those with psychological issues

That's right! And you deserved it.

Speed, Zennie made all my points better than I would've. But consider this:

Quote

My nephew has been having a hard time in school, life, etc. lately due in part because, 1) he and his Dad (my brother), were involved in a bus crash last February, in which he was uninjured but my brother suffered a brain injury and has spent the last year recovering from it (he's mostly better now, still walks with a limp). And the other issue is he's fourteen, which is a difficult time anyway.

I don't disagree with you that these kinds of drugs may be overprescribed.

But let me ask you this. How long would you like your nephew to have to be sad? Last February -- that's a year. That's a long time to spend every day struggling just to go on. I'm not being dramatic. That's the truth.

Some people can take traumatic things OK. They go through grief, they go through depression, it's horrible, it's hard, but it's a normal process.

Other people react differently. For some, events like that can trigger something they were prone to anyway. And that's when you get into real, honest-to-God, bio-chemical depression.

And in that situation, drugs are legit.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Michele 1]

***Disclaimer: I am a depression sufferer, not a Dr. I have been known to be wrong on more than one occasion...and this occasion is no different than any other one...****

Depression is thought to be caused by seratonin depletion. Seratonin is, unless I'm greatly mistaken, a chemical which your brain needs to balance emotional response, to stay "level". If you're faced with a situation which is on-going, one can see how staying level would be difficult, and use a lot of seratonin. To keep using seratonin up depletes the stores of it, and you end up with less to draw on. Over time, the brain ends up with nothing to draw on, and serious depression occurs. Untreated, depression kills. Sometimes quickly, sometimes over years, but it does kill. It masquerades in many different forms, and can be hidden behind other illnesses, both physical and mental. It is hard to treat without understanding the cause, but you can't touch the cause without intervention.

Meds like Prozac, Zoloft, wellbutrin and so forth are SSRI's (Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitors)(again, I could be wrong with classification on all the drugs). It prevents you from using all the seratonin available at once, and you begin to balance. Once your feet are back under you, you can start dealing with the issues which led to the imbalance in the first place.

There is a school of thought which says that people who suffer chronic depression are actually unable to produce enough seratonin, but it takes an event to deplete the seratonin that leads to depression. It's a susceptability, I suppose, towards less seratonin than "normal" folks that can trigger the depletion process.

There is also something called "situational depression' which, unless you are susceptible to depression, is transient and will generally resolve itself. The DSM V symptomology is not indicative of situational depression, which most people experience at one point or another. Chronic or severe depression is something which is, as stated, hard to combat and hard to diagnose. And the recidivism rate is something like 50% - once you've experienced a severe episode, the chances are equal that you will experience another one in the future.

In my particular situation, I have had two episodes which were severe since coming off my medications. There are techniques and ways to combat it, but you cannot learn them while in the midst of an episode. And one of those episodes was severe enough that I considered going back onto the medication to balance out again. But because I had learned some coping techniques and some skills I had not had prior to diagnosis and treatment, I was able to manage (barely) without getting back on the meds.

Just my .02, and please remember the disclaimer.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[wmw999 2,589]

Quote

Anyone know if say,an ongoing illness or disease that kicks your ass day in and day out,with no foreseeable change, can actually trigger the chemical imballance that causes depression, or is that imballance something you are born with??

No reason why it couldn't. And it could be, too, that even a very mild imbalance combined with real problems would have a strong impact. Just like a mild cold in someone healthy is not a real problem, and a mild cold in someone with lung disease is likely to be a much bigger problem.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SpeedRacer 1]

What worries me is people like Dave (in my second post) who thinks its OK to use drugs just to deal with being a little bummed out, and the fact that he actually RECOMMENDED that I try them as a way to improve my life...And I wasn't even depressed! Maybe he thought I was because at the time I had told him I hadn't had a girlfriend in a long time (although I wasn't overly bummed out about it).

Anyway, I just was shocked at Dave's cavalier attitude towards turning to drugs as a way for a healthy person to deal with life.

Speed Racer
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[Jessica 0]

Quote

What worries me is people like Dave (in my second post) who thinks its OK to use drugs just to deal with being a little bummed out, and the fact that he actually RECOMMENDED that I try them as a way to improve my life...And I wasn't even depressed!

So then don't use them. I don't get why it's any skin off people's nose if other adults choose to use doctor-prescribed medication. That's part of what contributes to the stigma surrounding those meds. I needed them for literally years before I finally acquiesced and started taking them, because I didn't want to be "weak."

Kids are, of course, a different situation.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Anyway, I just was shocked at Dave's cavalier attitude towards turning to drugs as a way for a healthy person to deal with life.

I don't know Dave personally, and I wasn't there during the conversation so I don't have context or body language to key off of, but there may be another explanation.

It could be that meds made a dramatic difference for him so he wants other people who he might perceive as needing them to reap the benefits of them as well. I don't mean that in a "get high" sort of sense... you can't get high off of antidepressants (at least not the ones I take) ... but in the sense of "I don't want my friends or family to suffer like I have".

Take that thought process and couple it with a general tendency for people to project their own qualities onto others and you can see why he might say something like that. He may see you behaving a certain way, or say certain things, and interpret them from his point of view rather than yours.

For example, you may say "I'm feeling bummed." In your mind, that's just kind an under the weather sort of feeling. In his mind, "bummed" may take on a completely different meaning.

In any event, Dave isn't a physician and can't prescribe drugs, so even if he does recommend them, nobody is going to be able to go on them (legally) without first being properly diagnosed by a physician.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

There are techniques and ways to combat it, but you cannot learn them while in the midst of an episode.

I have known chronic sufferers. The primary starting point is getting to a good place initially. As long as they are at the bottom, they can't fight it. People with chronic depression haven't got only one problem. It is a combination of several real problems, poor life-coping skills, and incorrect evaluation of circumstances - all at the same time.

It is like a rope. A rope made of hundreds of tiny strings. Individually, not a problem. Together?

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% your reaction to it.

When the meds are working, the over-sensitivity to events is dulled. The groundless fears about the future are quieter. A therapist can then teach a calmer person how to use good coping mechanisms instead of drugs/alchohol/etc. That is why "one day at a time" is the 12-step motto. Dealing with the pieces of life, not the overwhelming "all at once".