How to remember Columbia?

[Push 0]

All I hear about the Columbia disaster is "How horrible" and "They shouldn't have died like that." I agree that the accident is tragic, but just listen to me for a moment, and then decide if I'm crazy.

They went up, I'm guessing, for a similar reason we go up. And they take a much greater risk when they do. Why is it then that they should not have died this way? Would it be better if the accident did not happen? Yes, but the accident happened because their business is a very risky one. That is the real reason they died, at least I think so. The only way to eliminate that risk is to get out of the whole space thing for good.

What I'm trying to say is, if this accident did not happen, some other would have eventually and we would have been saying the same thing about them. So to say that they should not have died this way is only delaying the inevitable. Someone would have died this way, such is the job they are doing.

Everytime someone says "they shouldn't have died this way" sounds to me like "whuffo do they ride that space shuttle?"

I wish someone would look at that video of the fireball and say "Damn, I wish I could go out like that". Now that would make those 7 smile.

Am I nuts? Do you agree?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[phatcat 0]

Quote

Everytime someone says "they shouldn't have died this way" sounds to me like "whuffo do they ride that space shuttle?"

I wish someone would look at that video of the fireball and say "Damn, I wish I could go out like that". Now that would make those 7 smile.

Makes sense to me. If someone were to offer me the chance to go along on the next shuttle mission, you bet your ass I'd say "YES!" in a heartbeat.

Everybody dies, but those seven truly LIVED. I can only dream as much for myself.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Here Here!! Buy this man a BEER!

I absolutely agree.

Think back, when asked, didn't most of us say we would like to go out skydiving.....if you think we are in awe over our little bit of sky...think about being up in a craft all the way in space, with Earth as just a small dot....now with that visual and experience under your belt, all that is left to ask is that it be quick.

Just my opinion though.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[jraf 0]

If they used an otter all this would never happen

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[PhreeZone 20]

Remembering Columbia should be almost as short and fast as adding their names to the memorial plauqe at Kennedy along side Challenger and Apollo 1's astronauts. Then their memorial service and at the end the flags return to full mast.

Yes.. 7 people died in a very risky situation, but our servicemen and women put them selfs in danger every day too and if they die we rarely declare flags to be flown at half staff for 5 days.

It might sound cold, but how many days did the media cover the recent helo crash in Afganistan that killed 4 soldiers and how many days were all the flags flying at half staff?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[phatcat 0]

Quote

It might sound cold, but how many days did the media cover the recent helo crash in Afganistan that killed 4 soldiers and how many days were all the flags flying at half staff?

Very true.

[Push 0]

I'm with you there. How many people die in car accidents every single day? I'll bet money that it's a whole lot more than 7.

Death is a part of life. By choosing to be astronauts, they chose not just how to live, but also how to die. If they can accept that choice, why can't everyone else? The whole story is so big now because they want out so spectacularly. Same reason nobody covers skydiving successes, but all the whuffos jump on every failure anyone ever does in the air.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[billvon 3,107]

Yep. Given the choice between dying as a meteor and dying of colon cancer, I know what I'd choose. They died at the end of a very successful mission, taking a risk that they all understood and signed up for. There are far worse ways to die.

[blewaway5 0]

I posted this in Wendy W.'s thread titled "Blue skies, crew" and since that thread died pretty quick and it seems to fit the mood of this thread I thought I'd post here, too. It's nothing big, just my thoughts on the whole thing.

Quote

Thanks for that thread title. I've been trying to figure out the feeling this badness has given me, and that summed it up. To expand that idea, we as skydivers are pretty fond of the whole if riding in a boat is swimming then riding in a plane is flying. Maybe these people weren't skydiving, but they had that same core idealism that we all have. They train hard to push the limits. And yes, I think it's safe to say they fly even more than we do. We all feel tiny when when we skydive, that's why most of us say it puts thngs back in pespective for us. Imagine how it is for them. On that note, Blue skies, and yes, black death. I know my heart, all of our hearts, go out to them.

Truman Sparks for President

[Gawain 0]

I think you're right on target.

To add to your thought too, look at the people that participate in this program. Look at their eyes, their smiles, how they carry themselves. These are literally the best and brightest minds. They have an energy which I think many wish could be bottled and sold to the "watchers" of the world.

Any bright mind could easily see the serious dangers in such an undertaking. Yet these peole do so with an enthusiasm and focus which I imagine is contagious. It truly is admirable and endearing for everyone.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Push 0]

Quote

To add to your thought too, look at the people that participate in this program. Look at their eyes, their smiles, how they carry themselves. These are literally the best and brightest minds. They have an energy which I think many wish could be bottled and sold to the "watchers" of the world.

You know, a lot of skydivers are very bright people too. As well as many folks that die in car accidents. I think this is what these "watcher" folks are so hung up about - the fact that these people were bright and promising.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I think they shuold name the International Space Station after 'Columbia'.
It would have a better ring to it anyways.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

I think they shuold name the International Space Station after 'Columbia'.
It would have a better ring to it anyways.

Doesn't the ISS (International Space Station) already have a name? Freedom?

[FallingILweenie 0]

I think when they come out with a new generation of shuttles, they should name the first 2 Challenger and Columbia, in that order....sort of how they sometimes carry over ship names on warships from the ww2 era.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hmm dunno Chris, I really don't.
'Mir' was Peace.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Guest]

Quote

I'm with you there. How many people die in car accidents every single day? I'll bet money that it's a whole lot more than 7.

We've been debating this at work, in much the same manner. Here is my opinion:

An egalitarian would remark that "So what? More people die on the roads every day."

But I submit that the egalitarian is wrong.

If I died in a car accident, I wouldn't expect that people would fly capitol flags at half-staff, because I'm just another of the raggedy-assed masses. My passing will make hardly a ripple; I will vanish and be forgotten.

But these people were our elite; they were our very, very best and brightest. Not only that, but the space program represents the most positive and uplifting part of our culture.

In an age where "It's not my job", cookie-cutter conformity and the numbness of post industrial ennui have replaced the spirit of adventure and exploration, there are some with the faith, courage and initiative to step forward and carry the torch for mankind. That the torch and the lives of those who carried it have both been snuffed out is disheartening; yet, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

When I was in mountaineering school a few years ago, I memorized this piece of a JFK speech at Rice University, and spoke it out loud to myself anytime I was getting tired, despondent, and wanting to quit.

"But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask, why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?

We choose to go to the moon...we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard (emphasis mine)!

Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Zeemax 0]

yes i agree its dangerours, but then there are some things which can be done to make it less dangerous.

I dont know what infomation you guys are getting over there, but i've seen footage of the launch. There were bits falling off the god damn shuttle even before it was airbourne.

NASA last year fired 5 of its 9 safety advisors, with one of their top safety people resigning in protest. They warned that this could happen. They knew the shuttle was in bad condition.

I'm all for going out in stlye, but not if it could have been prevented and in this case i think it could have been

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

yes i agree its dangerours, but then there are some things which can be done to make it less dangerous.

I dont know what infomation you guys are getting over there, but i've seen footage of the launch. There were bits falling off the god damn shuttle even before it was airbourne.

NASA last year fired 5 of its 9 safety advisors, with one of their top safety people resigning in protest. They warned that this could happen. They knew the shuttle was in bad condition.

I'm all for going out in stlye, but not if it could have been prevented and in this case i think it could have been

What are you talking about "before it was airborne"? It was 90 seconds into flight when that insulation hit the left wing. This HAS happened before and the shuttle returned. Why would this be any different than the other flights. They obviously couldn't tell the severity of the damage created right then. They don't even know that this caused the accident so saying that it was preventable is a very premature statement. ANY accident is preventable. But having the ability to change the outcome is the determining factor as to whether it will happen or not. It may be that there was no way to tell that this would happen on THIS occasion and not all the other times.

I really get irritated when people in other countries imply that the US citizens are intentionally kept in the dark all the time and only THEY get the truth. Oh please.

It has also been reported that those "safety advisors" implied that the funding would effect shuttle flights in the future. NOT the current flights in the short term including STS-107 (this flight). When you report things you need to include the whole story. Sometimes we DO get more info here than other countries. And yes, we have seen the new footage with the zoomed in area of the shuttle and insulation hitting the left wing. I have no idea if anyone is able to watch that video while it is launching. It's not like instant replay in football. You don't get 2 minutes to review the tape before going on. You have a split second to decide whether to perform an RTLS (Return To Launch Site).

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Zeemax 0]

[replyI really get irritated when people in other countries imply that the US citizens are intentionally kept in the dark all the time and only THEY get the truth. Oh please.

Quote

I'm sorry if this is what it seems like. I work for a major media company here and am privy to information regarding events that the general 'public' aren't. I was not saying that the UK had more information than the US.

In this instance, the general feel amongst people i have spoken to is that this could have been prevented.

Yes, there were shots of things falling from the nose cone , BEFORE, lift off.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

• Quote

[wildblue 7]

Quote

I wish someone would look at that video of the fireball and say "Damn, I wish I could go out like that". Now that would make those 7 smile.

Helluva lot better than those 4 kids who drown off off City Island last week. Drowning, in freezing cold water - that's a terrible way to go. And talk about a tragedy that could have been prevented - you know that extra $1 you (and everyone else) pay on your cell phone bill (for the last 8 or 9 years) that supposed to pay for E911?* Not there. Could have saved these kids too, they called 911 from a cell phone looking for help. They may not have been the best and brightest, but you never know, they could have been.
Yeah, losing 7 great people and a 4 billion dollar craft is terrible. But exploring space isn't safe, and NASA has had all sorts of budget cutbacks over the years. Why? Probably because the American public lost interest. That's why the last 2 scheduled moon landings were scrapped too. So should we blame ourselves?
The shuttle is an old design, I really think they should come up with something new. The now famous tiles have always had problems - they lose some on almost every mission. Lose certain tiles in just a certain way, and this happens. Just as approaching the earth at 120+ mph with nothing to save you but some fabric is not safe - entering the Earth's atmosphere at 13,000 mph is not safe. You can do everything right and still die.

*E911 is a system where 911 operators can locate you when you call from a cell phone.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[billvon 3,107]

>I dont know what infomation you guys are getting over there, but i've
> seen footage of the launch. There were bits falling off the god damn
> shuttle even before it was airbourne.

Yep, that's normal. From umbilical release seals to ice on the ET, a lot of stuff falls off right after ignition.

>NASA last year fired 5 of its 9 safety advisors, with one of their top
> safety people resigning in protest. They warned that this could
> happen. They knew the shuttle was in bad condition.

NASA did indeed always know this could happen. Every orbital launch is a very risky proposition. The shuttle is the safest space vehicle we have now - it's over 98% reliable, and is being improved all the time. Sometimes the odds catch up to you.

>I'm all for going out in stlye, but not if it could have been prevented
> and in this case i think it could have been . . .

Of course. We could have stayed on the ground. The Apollo 1 crew would never have died if we hadn't wanted to go to the moon; safer to stay on earth. The Challenger and Columbia crews would never have died if we'd been content to give up after Apollo. We would never even see skydivers die if we insisted on perfect safety since no one would ever jump.

But some of us are willing to risk our lives to do what we want, and so were these people. When the shuttle flies again it will be even safer, with what we know now integrated into the design. It will not be 100% safe, and I admire the men and women who willingly fly it anyway.

[Billy 0]

I thought there would have been mention of a 7 way Freefly,, or a 7 way something,, definately a tragedy,,, any loss of life is right,, we take the technology for granted,, lets put 7 folks on a glider,, start the final approach half way around the planet from space,, with almost no margin of error and supersonic speeds,, and hit your LZ bingo,, and do it so well the world starts thinking its routine,, doesn't hardly make the news until shit happens,, I agree with the lets learn from the incident and move on,, to stop now would be the real tragedy

Natural Born FlyerZ.com

[Guest]

Hear, hear. Well said, Bill.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[gary350 0]

Quote

I wish someone would look at that video of the fireball and say "Damn, I wish I could go out like that". Now that would make those 7 smile.

It sure as hell made me smile. Thanks, I needed that. A lot.

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

The shuttle is an old design, I really think they should come up with something new. The now famous tiles have always had problems - they lose some on almost every mission. Lose certain tiles in just a certain way, and this happens. Just as approaching the earth at 120+ mph with nothing to save you but some fabric is not safe - entering the Earth's atmosphere at 13,000 mph is not safe. You can do everything right and still die.

I believe the replacement test vehichle is called the X-33. It is an SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) vehicle so no flying debri to damage tiles. The project was using a new engine called an Aero-Spike. Awesome stuff. The project was mothballed about 2-3 years ago due to budget cutbacks from the Clinton administration I believe. Either way, we have a new vehichle to do the job and carry on after the Shuttle. But it sits unfinished in a hangar. There was once a live feed camera that looked in on it. Don't know the link or whether it is still active anymore. I hope the project is imediately reinstated and production resumes.

Chris