the Guernica

[kallend 2,150]

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As far as Dresden goes, the principal architect was "Bomber" Harris. Churchill knew about the plan of targeting civilians to weaken the morale of the German population.

However, I would have like to been in that room when the phone call came in from Germany to London...
"Hello, we Germans are calling you British in London to complain about the indiscriminate bombing of civilians..." "Umm... could I put you on hold? A buzz-bomb is about to land..." Anyone see the irony of that?

"Strategic" bombing was invented in WWI by the German High Command, and utilized in Spain and Poland by the Nazis. The UK and US were latecomers to the party.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Push 0]

So is war necessary now that Powell said his stuff?

I think we should try for another round of inspections, given this evidence in the open. If that doesn't work, I guess we are down to our last resort.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[miked10270 0]

WHile we're (sidetracked) on the history of strategic bombing...

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"Strategic" bombing was invented in WWI by the German High Command, and utilized in Spain and Poland by the Nazis. The UK and US were latecomers to the party.

Yes, "Strategic bombing was "invented" by Germany in WWI. Cricket & Soccer were invented by the British. Then the latecomers - India, Pakistan, Australia, Brazil, Burkina-Faso - All do it better.

In WWII the Luftwaffe's chief role was tactical support for the ground troops. All German bombers were designed for this purpose and were "poor" strategic bombers. The Luftwaffe's chief strategic tactic was to send bombers over strategic targets in small numbers throughout the night in order to maximise the length of disruption of the civilian population.

A DH100 Mosquito could carry a greater tonnage of bombs per aircraft than anything in the German inventory. The Short Stirling, B-17, Halifax, exceeded the bomb load by a factor of 7. The Avro Lancaster carried 10 times the bomb tonnage of anything in the german inventory. One of Bomber Harris' 1,000 bomber raids resulted in the German city of choice being hit by over 3 times the entire Luftwaffe's bomber aircraft strength in one night!

Just like soccer and cricket, it was the "latecomers" who were REALLY good at it.

The V1/Buzz Bomb/Beechcraft was used when the German bombers couldn't get at England, and weren't the most effective of weapons in terms of damage anyway.

On an unrelated point, Adolf Hitler was in fact a more compassionate leader than CHurchill! After the paratrop invasion of Crete he wept at the casualties his Fallschirmjager suffered, and expressly forbade any such future operations because of the casualties pending the Fallschirmjager being properly re-equipped. He then commissioned the development of a specialist weapon, the FG42 to ensure that his Fallschirmjager were never going to be outgunned on a drop again. Compare that with CHurchill's attitude toward the Paratroopers in Dieppe, Overlord, Market-Garden! Same-Oh kit, same-oh tactics, and hence same-oh casualties. I use this as an example that this is not a matter of "Black-hats" & "White-hats", the justification of war is shades of grey (and the victors get to set the colour chart).

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Michele 1]

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A diplomat stated that it would not be an appropriate background if the ambassador of the United States at the U.N. John Negroponte, or Powell, talk about war surrounded with women, children and animals shouting with horror and showing the suffering of the bombings.

Which diplomat? One of the US's? Or someone else? Anyone know?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rocketfeuille 0]

I hate to contradict the great Billvon, but I have something to say...
The painting might have been covered for technical reasons. I've worked with production crews on this kind of thing before, and there are a lot of technical considerations concerning backdrop for televised speeches. They might have covered the painting because it messes with the lighting in the area or washes out the speaker's face.
Just something to consider...

[Zenister 0]

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The white house had the painting covered up.

actually bill all the news sources i've read (been surfing this morning)say the UN had it covered up, although its likely they did so at the US's request..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

A DH100 Mosquito could carry a greater tonnage of bombs per aircraft than anything in the German inventory. The Short Stirling, B-17, Halifax, exceeded the bomb load by a factor of 7. The Avro Lancaster carried 10 times the bomb tonnage of anything in the german inventory. One of Bomber Harris' 1,000 bomber raids resulted in the German city of choice being hit by over 3 times the entire Luftwaffe's bomber aircraft strength in one night!

Just like soccer and cricket, it was the "latecomers" who were REALLY good at it.

That's just fine with me (recalls something in the Bible about he who sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind...)

I don't recall Poland's blitzkreig invasion of Germany on Sept 1, 1939.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JJohnson 0]

Well said.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[JJohnson 0]

I think I could really enjoy a conversation with you.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[airtwardo 7]

***
Adolf Hitler was in fact a more compassionate leader than CHurchill!

Quote

Yeah...His "Final Solution" was an all time hit on the
compassion chart

Great Call!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,120]

>The painting might have been covered for technical reasons.

It was a black and white painting, put there specifically so that when people saw it outside UN they would realize what the UN's mission was. In fact I think it was put there for speeches exactly like this one, to provide a broader perspective when leaders call for war.

>They might have covered the painting because it messes with the
> lighting in the area or washes out the speaker's face.

Or perhaps dilutes his message.

I have no doubt that, if pressed, Powell or Bush's team can come up with an excellent technical reason that it might make Powell not look as good as he otherwise might. I agree with them but for a different reason.

[Kinaa 0]

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The white house had the painting covered up...

Is there any link for that story?
I searched but could not find any...

[miked10270 0]

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***
Adolf Hitler was in fact a more compassionate leader than CHurchill!

Quote

Yeah...His "Final Solution" was an all time hit on the
compassion chart

Great Call!

Time to BITE!

Beware of confusing pop-culture with real history.

The idea of Adolph Hitler as a rabid anti-semite is unsupported. As an artist he worked mainly for and amongst the jewish community of Austria. Prior to 1945 (and the discovery of the true extent of the holocaust) anti-semitism was in fact a widely held and acceptable (like it or not) viewpoint - indeed it was one of the few opinions which crossed both class and national divides. What the NSDAP under Hitler did was to jump onto the bandwagon and rose to power not simply from it's anti-semitism, but from the fallout of the collapse of the Weimar Republic. Given the NSDAP's anti-semitic stance (which could initially be discounted as political posturing) it DID attract anti-semites, Reinhard Heydrich in particular (Heydrich was the real architect of the "Final Solution" at a conference in Wannsee in 1941, effectively driving a multi agency conference on the Jewish problem).

Meanwhile, prior to WWII numerous countries including the US, UK, France ALL refused to accept shiploads of German Jewish emigrants. I think that the most famous one was the SS Hamburg of the Hansa Line - a liner full of German Jews allowed to leave by the Germans and systematically refused entry to a succession of countries before being effectively forced to return to Germany and their fate.

The existence of "Sonderlager" was known by the allied governments from 1940 at least. Some air aids were made against Sonderarbeitslager by both the USAAF and RAF with the objective of disrupting German war production.

So in 1945, when these camps were overrun by allied forces... "Quelle surprise"!!!! (NOT).

Further evidence of Churchill's callousness.... IN 1940 the British discovered the presence of the German night bombing navigation aid "Knickebein", and learned how to spoof it - not by jamming the beam but by bending it. In this way the Germans went to bomb a strategic target, say Liverpool Docks, and were thus induced to bomb the hell out of a $hitload of fish in the Irish sea. This could have been used to make EVERY german night bomber raid ineffectual but it was decreed that they must continue to have success, only not against strategic targets. Presumably the decisions about what successes were to be given to the Germans was made by somebody with NO connection to Coventry!!!!

REcently, information has surfaced regarding RAF disciplinary actions against pilots for LMF (Lack of Moral Fibre) for refusing to repeat attacks on unarmed german refugee ships, at least one of which was carryingJewish concentration camp inmated across the Baltic late in the war (Don't worry Reinhard. OK your gas chambers have been overrun, but how about a squadron of RAF Typhoons rocket & strafe the evacuation ships to smithereens. That should nicely kill those jews for you).

I think that I said earlier that War is not about white hats and black hats. It's hats in shades of grey. And remember that the victors have control of the colour chart.

Mike.

PS. I appreciate that this is a potted history, much as I'd like to post 20+k words on "motivations versus administration of the holocaust perpetrated by Germany, 1934-1945" and cover communists, gypsies, indians, jews, mental invalids, negros, physical invalids, socialists etc... This is not the place.

THis post is not history. It is about the impending future and it's likely consequences.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[kallend 2,150]

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***


Further evidence of Churchill's callousness.... IN 1940 the British discovered the presence of the German night bombing navigation aid "Knickebein", and learned how to spoof it - not by jamming the beam but by bending it. In this way the Germans went to bomb a strategic target, say Liverpool Docks, and were thus induced to bomb the hell out of a $hitload of fish in the Irish sea. This could have been used to make EVERY german night bomber raid ineffectual but it was decreed that they must continue to have success, only not against strategic targets. Presumably the decisions about what successes were to be given to the Germans was made by somebody with NO connection to Coventry!!!!

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that if German spies reported no successes at all, the Germans might just possibly conclude that something was up and change/fix their navigation system. In any event, that was exactly what they did, Knickebein became essentially obsolete after July 1940. The Coventry raid of November 1940 was the first conducted using KG100 pathfinders and the newer X-Gerat system, which was, at the time, unjammable. And, of course, wartime leaders are called upon to make hard choices.

Later in the war, when there was good reason to suppose that all German spies in London had been "turned", British Military Intelligence used systematic deception to draw the V1 aiming point away from central London, to the detriment of the inhabitants of Bromley and Croydon. War is hell.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Quote

***
Adolf Hitler was in fact a more compassionate leader than CHurchill!

Quote

Yeah...His "Final Solution" was an all time hit on the
compassion chart

Great Call!

Time to BITE!

Beware of confusing pop-culture with real history.

Quote

Time to swallow rookie

I don't care who your slick haired buddy was hanging wallpaper for..."artist" sheech!

Two years ago documents were uncovered...brought to light that is, they were never lost...showing Dolpho's signature on the orders instructing the setting up of this "pop culture fantasy" known as the final solution...he wasn't just going along...he was pullin' the cart!
...and don't preface some bullshit editorial statement of your opinion with- "It's a fact"...
The "factual" reason he "shed a tear" is because he was a known manic depressant! He was nuts!
...and a couple of more "facts" that you must not be aware of...My father ( 89th re-con, 9th armored div. )
brought home with him several hundred photographs of the results stemming from the wonderful parties your buddy was throwing at some of his many "pop culture" concentration camp get togethers...it's called gen-o-side there sparky...true it was ONLY 20 million of 'em, but add that to the 20 million Russians...the French, Americans, your Brits..and 'fore long ya start runnin' into so REAL numbers of dead.
...If young Americans (like my father) hadn't stepped in to fight a war that "the US really had no business fighting"..... You, my warm beer drinking, wrong side of the road driving, soon to be off student status, friend...WOULD BE SPEAKING GERMAN!!!
But, alas...I can't really be TOO upset by your fuzzy
facts concerning the bailing out of your country by mine...
...from what my Dad tells me of the women he met during his stay in your land...we're no doubt RELATED

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Zenister 0]

interesting topic, lots of room for discussion...

of course it wont go anywhere if you cant present your points without the condescension, angry sarcasm and sideways personal attacks. Such methods only weaken your position and make any good points you might have less credible.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[airtwardo 7]

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interesting topic, lots of room for discussion...

of course it wont go anywhere if you cant present your points without the condescension, angry sarcasm and sideways personal attacks. Such methods only weaken your position and make any good points you might have less credible.

This post is not history.
It is about the impending future and it's likely consequences.
And how frighteningly similar the circumstances are.

Conclusions based on conjecture of misinterpreted and overtly misrepresented facts do NOT make for an analytically motivated discussion of this most-"interesting topic."

Look through any colored glasses you want to...

There are some crazy bastards out there that if left unchecked, will try to impose their irrationally conceived 'vision ' of world order. Costing unimaginable suffering to quite literally countless innocent human beings
.
There is no qualifying the planned extermination of masses of people.
People that were, more so than not, culturally and geography similar to the dictator that gassed them death...like Hittler...er..ahh..Sadam did.

I make the points overly sarcastic and curt in an intentional, but obviously unsuccessful ( for you anyway...) attempt to expose in a casually subliminal fashion, a parallel yet flawed method of ....
AHHH, never mind, you wouldn't get THAT either

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JJohnson 0]

I really like the way you think buddy. You are correct, when it comes to politics, history and war there are no absolute rights or wrongs. Only opinions, distortion of truth and a contest of who has the power to enforce their will.
The normal motivation comes down to greed, plain and simple. It would be nice if we coulde look at things from that simple black and white view point, but things are rarely that simple. And Lord forbid they are that simple, mankind will find layers of bullshit to pile on top and confuse the issue. No country can claim innocence in its dealings. Governments are made up of people, in power, that want to stay in power and increase their power. They do dirty shit to accomplish that.
Looking at the Iraq situation a few things are clear. Saddam is a prick and deserves to die for many reasons. We are justified in going in and kicking his ass simply because he violated the rules of his suurender. He declared a war, he lost. We get to choose the color now. Either live up to the terms you agreed to or prepare for more ass-kickings.
IF a drunk at bar called your wife a slut and grabbed her ass, he has to expect a whooping. If he cries uncle and asks for quarter and again repeats his behaivor......he deserves what is coming.
So for anybody out there that opposes action in Iraq, I must disagree with you. Saddam has it coming by not living up to the terms he agreed to.
All other political BS aside, which I make no claim to understand, no insightful views....Iraq has this coming.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[jumperconway 0]

Here,here!

[moodyskydiver 0]

This is the only pic I could get for some reason..heres what I found for those of us who havent seen this painting.

"...just an earthbound misfit, I."

[Zenister 0]

actually i GET your point rather well, and do not entirely disagree, however your method of delivery leaves your argument the poorer, and makes your opinion (and a great deal of this sort of discussion IS opinion.[I]remember history is written by the victors, however it is not always written well) look foolish in comparison. If you are incapable of presenting your view any better than that, then you shouldnt bother since you only give credence to the opposition by your lack of articulate argument..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 3,120]

It's been a pretty good thread so far, a lot of different viewpoints without too much in the way of personal attacks. However, insinuating that someone else was born as the result of their mother being raped is sort of a personal attack, even if you are using it to make a point. Please don't use such tactics.

[miked10270 0]

Thank you.

Many people lost family during WWII. losing loved ones sems to be a feature of real war. I lost a grandfather and 2 great uncles during the retreat to Dunkirk in 1940. 7th Battn, Durham Light Infantry. about 40% of the village men volunteered and went away with the BEF. About 30% of the volunteers didn't come back from Dunkirk.

I don't blame Hitler, or Germany, or the Nazi's. The family I lost were probably killed by some young wehrmacht infantryman doing his job. I don't accuse the un-named german of murder. I don't blame the British high command with their outdated equipment and tactics. They expected to fight the 1914-18 war all over again.

Another of my family was in 100 group, bomber support & had a hand in killing a fair number of Germans. I don't call him a murderer.

It was war, and real war is barbaric with each side playing hard to win.

National populations aren't evil, people are people, there's good, bad, dumb & intelligent among all nations. My original point was that in comparing Hitler and Churchill, Hitler was the one who was more concerned with and upset at casualties. Hitler buckled under the stress of conducting a war, then again his lower middle class upbringing & working class life didn't prepare him in the way that Churchill's upper class upbringing and life in government did. Churchill WAS more callous than Hitler. Perhaps that was as well since a compassionate man would probably have sued for peace after Dunkirk.

Hitler was a poor choice of leader - his economic policies were in fact little more than those implemented by the Weimar Republic in the 1920's, great for short term expansion and to kick start an economy but had it not been for the war in 1939 or some other continuous expansion then Germany would have collapsed in bankruptcy by 1940.

The original motivation for the persecution of Jews was the old "They have wealth & we want it". Basically, it started out as legalised state robbery of a group already disliked as a race by the christian majority. Note, not disliked as individuals - every German "knows a good Jew". It was the Jewish population's ability as a whole to survive the Weimar collapse in better shape than the remainder of the population that fanned the existing anti-semitism to the point where a minority party could gain power and panic the actual leaders of Germany to promote Hitler to CHancellor when his election results, although significant didn't merit this. I suppose that the idea of embracing the threat and thus smothering it didn't work that time.

Incidentally, the German replacement for Knickebein (I don't think it was called Gerat-X, wasn't that the giant radar stations) was found and was perhaps even easier to spoof. It worked on the same principle as the British "Gee" navigation and once the frequency was known, then the signal was captured and re-transmitted out of phase. Also by then, the RAF night fighter squadrons were largely equipped withBeaufighters & (Mk.4)AI with sector controllers and GCI well able to handle the relatively low volume of traffic sent over by the Luftwaffe.

I really should apologise for the disjointed nature of this post, and the fact that it's off topic since it deals with the 1939-1945 war (or in some cases the 1942-1945 war).

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The original motivation for the persecution of Jews was the old "They have wealth & we want it". Basically, it started out as legalised state robbery of a group already disliked as a race by the christian majority."

I'm not having this, your explanation doesn't fit the treatment of blacks, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, the Russians, Slovaks and other "untermenschen" (sp?).
I believe the Germans at the time in question were extending a potentially flawed philosophy based on Nietzsche's idea of "Ubermenschen", and the provision of a lebensraum, or free land where the Aryan race could expand.
But hey, I'm all about free and open debate, something your relatives, and mine fought for....

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Zinger 0]

***
"insinuating that someone else was born as the result of their mother being raped is sort of a personal attack"

Everyone is different, Some how Bill you jumped to the conclusion that this mother was "Raped" when I came to the conclusion that this mother was a slut who was VERY grateful to The American men for bailing their boy's out from total domination from an attacking country. Just like alot of girls feel towards rescuing heroes, and that is exactly what most Americans soldiers ARE! Rescuing Heroes.

------Have a good one!--------