the Guernica

[billvon 3,120]

In 1937, German bombers destroyed the town of Guernica, Spain. The bombers ignored the munitions plant; instead they bombed the center of town, including a train station packed with evacuees. Over 1000 people were killed. It became a parable describing how inhuman the fascists here.

Pablo Picasso, upon hearing this, began what would become one of his greatest works - the Guernica. It depicts the horrors of that day, and became an icon of the evils of war.

Near the entrance to the United Nations is a huge reproduction of this famous painting. It stands there to remind UN representatives that they are not mere bureaucrats, but are there to prevent future Guernicas; their primary mission is peace.

Powell will be speaking near there tomorrow. The white house had the painting covered up. It wouldn't do to have some sort of 'war isn't great' spin put on Powell's speech, I suppose. I think it's sad that our administration would go so far as to hide one of the greatest works of art in the world, and indeed the one that sums up the UN's purpose, so they can present exactly the right spin on a war they want. Wouldn't want people to see that painting and actually think!

And if there's anyone left who thinks our goal is disarmament and not war, watch Powell's speech tomorrow and notice what background he appears against.

[wmw999 2,589]

Shit. If you can't say what you think is that important against any backdrop, then it's probably not that important after all.

Wendy

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freefallfreak 0]

WAR?? When the Olympics were held in Hotlanta, the Federal government wanted to cover the carving of the Confederate Memorial on the side of Stone(d) Mountain with what looked like a giant condom...but failed miserably, thank god.

FFF

Jack Kevorkian for White House physician.

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[PhreeZone 20]

Bill... you got a link to a story about covering it up?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[indyz 1]

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NEW YORK.- The "Guernica" work by Pablo Picasso at the entrance of the Security Council of the United Nations has been covered with a curtain. The reason for covering this work is that this is the place where diplomats make statements to the press and have this work as the background. The Picasso work features the horrors of war. On January 27 a large blue curtain was placed to cover the work.

Fred Eckhard, press secretary of the U.N. said: "It is an appropriate background for the cameras." He was questioned as to why the work had been covered.

A diplomat stated that it would not be an appropriate background if the ambassador of the United States at the U.N. John Negroponte, or Powell, talk about war surrounded with women, children and animals shouting with horror and showing the suffering of the bombings.

This work is a reproduction of the Guernica that was donated by Nelson A. Rockefeller to the U.N. in 1985.

[billvon 3,120]

>When the Olympics were held in Hotlanta, the Federal government
>wanted to cover the carving of the Confederate Memorial on the side of
>Stone(d) Mountain with what looked like a giant condom...but failed
>miserably, thank god.

I'm glad they failed there; I just wish they hadn't succeeded in covering up Picasso's work.

[Gawain 0]

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And if there's anyone left who thinks our goal is disarmament and not war, watch Powell's speech tomorrow and notice what background he appears against.

While looking for a backdrop, I hope that those that tune in to watch, will also listen carefully to the speech, the presentation and draw their own conclusions not from a painting, but by what is said.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Zenister 0]

ah but that painting portrays a truth more universal than anything Powell might. Its unfortunate that our administration is afraid of its message. Afraid to look the results of our (possibly necessary) actions in the face.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[FallRate 0]

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In 1937, German bombers destroyed the town of Guernica, Spain. The bombers ignored the munitions plant; instead they bombed the center of town, including a train station packed with evacuees. Over 1000 people were killed. It became a parable describing how inhuman the fascists here.

So does this mean that Dresden was the product of really bad karma?

FallRate

[miked10270 0]

Coventry, Koln, Berlin, and perhaps above all Hamburg.

Yes, war is poisonous, it kills.

Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Auschwitz.

Yes, war is poisonous. It kills. Chemotherapy is also poisonous. It kills. But sometimes it's necesary to kill - the objective is to kill the evil while allowing as much of the innocent to survive as possible.

We have become unrealistic in our expectations of war (perhaps too much hollywood). During WWII, Korea, Vietnam, "Friendly Fire" incidents were common. During WWii, when "Strategic" bombing reached it's zenith, 1,000 bomber raids, Firestorm raids were a deliberate policy with the objective of preventing the civilian population from carrying out it's role of support and supply of the armed forces. In effect economic war. THankfully war has developed and the art of tactical support has improved to the point that when one of our weapons misses it's target or causes some collateral damage then it's news.

Without entering a debate on the justification of the forthcoming war, I worry about how well the coalition forces will handle the results of their success. Iraq is an artificial country ruled by a strong leader. Just like yugoslavia was an artificial country ruled by a strong leader. Take away the unifying force and civil war is the probable result.

Personally I think that Powell was wrong to have had the picasso covered. He should have delivered his speech in front of the painting, & perhaps altered the speech in light of the background.

Meanwhile, I hope & pray that the coalition forces will expend nothing more than fuel in Iraq. Perhaps "All we have to do is kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down" will be true this time.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[FallRate 0]

That was a very pleasant post. Much appreciated!

FallRate

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Meanwhile, I hope & pray that the coalition forces will expend nothing more than fuel in Iraq. "

I hear you old pal...

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kmcguffee 0]

Nice post Mike. Some people forget that sacrifice is sometimes necessary. A large part of America has forgotten how to sacrifice. It is a problem of too much of everything for too little effort.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[jraf 0]

In 1944 American (yes our own flyer boys) bombed the city of Dresden, Germany. The city was of no strategic importance, but full of refugies. The bombing caused a firestorm killing over 200,000 people in one night, plus wounded.

Yes Bill the Nazis were real bastards?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jfields 0]

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The bombing caused a firestorm killing over 200,000 people in one night, plus wounded.

Hey, at least we weren't trying to systematically wipe out an entire ethnic group. 200,000 is a lot less than 6 million.

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the Nazis were real bastards?

Yes, they were.

[mouth 0]

Unfortunately they have managed to change our flag so that it no longer consists of the Rebel flag and the state seal. The stupid one we have now isn't even worth calling a flag. Hopefully our new governor will do something about it, and at least come up with a better flag. Personally I don't think by doing away with a symbol you can erase it's meaning or how it got to stand for something in the beginning.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[miked10270 0]

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Quote

Hey, at least we weren't trying to systematically wipe out an entire ethnic group. 200,000 is a lot less than 6 million.

No, but that was ONE raid. Meanwhile "Bomber" Harris (later Sir Arthur Harris - knighted for services during the war as head of Bomber Command) sent 1,000 bomber raids and "Firestorm" raids over Germany as often as possible. He prayed nightly for (of all things)... God's assistance in annihilating the German people.

Annihilating; reducing to nothing!

Despite the passage of a mere 60 years, this was a war in what is now a strangely barbaric time. Even moving forward 30 years, look at Vietnam and the barbarities committed there by both sides in that conflict. Agent Orange, deliberate mutilation of prisoners, Keeping POWs in 4'X4'X4' cages, interrogations followed by a single skydive from a helicopter, deliberately and repeatedly breaking captured pilots hands and feet...

Today war is largely conducted on the tactical level, armed forces Vs armed forces while the civilian population is reduced to the level of spectators able to catch te day's (edited) highlights on CNN. I'm sure we'll all be enthralled, then slightly bored by bomb and strike camera footage which looks just like the last hollywood war film. With a little product placement we could even have the footage of the Iraqi pickup driver clearing the bridge just as the Paveway guided bomb hits cutting straight to a voiceover; "Well, He doesn't need Ex-Lax Chocolate Flavoured Laxative... But at only $0.99 a bar, keep some in YOUR medicine cabinet."

War is still a poisonous activity, just don't confuse what you see - "as real as it gets" with what's real. Real is pride in your country and yourself. Real is being willing to fight for your country and what you believe in. Real is body bags and grieving families. Real is playing to win - Patton summed it up best when he said "I don't intend to die heroically for my country, I intend to make sore the other por bastard dies heroically for his".

Real is body bags and grieving families.
Real is body bags and grieving families.
......

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[charliezulu 0]

I'm looking for the covered up Guernica replica, Bill - where is it. All the coverage is close-up right now. Is it in a separate press area?

CZ

[jfields 0]

Mike,

I'm not downplaying the seriousness of war. Quite the opposite.

I dislike the defense given to Nazi activities (not by you), and the glorification of attempted genocide, torture, unwilling medical testing and countless other things they did.

Equally barbaric things were done in Vietnam too. Nor am I saying that the US is innocent of all these things. Unfortunately, we've done our share too.

In the comment you quoted, I wasn't saying that the Dresden firebombings were right, or that we should be proud to have done them. I was putting things in perspective, that it was less bad then the extermination of 6 million. In relative terms, I still think that is true.

Generally, I think we pretty much agree on this issue.

[Guest]

It will indeed be interesting to see just how strong the evidence is. If a compelling case for war is to be made, now is the time.

"It's all about oil" is an easy sound-bite. I'd like to hear rational arguments and form my own conclusions.

"The war is just, which is necessary." - Machiavelli

"War spares not the brave, but the cowardly." - Anachreon

I think the whole thing will stand or fall based upon what is seen today. This is the culmination of the Powell Doctrine as demonstrated in PGW1.

However, please don't burn my flag. If I see you do that, I will treat it as hate speech.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Mark, I was disappointed that everyone seemed to ignore this....
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=374285#374285

Basically it is a statement from the BBC that there are no links between Saddam, and Osama.

I am against this war until someone can give me a reason for it. I'm NOT anti American, although I may disagree with some of your foriegn policies. Not enough to call you guys names though.

I will be looking at Colin Powell's statements later on with interest, because I actually respect that guy.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Guest]

Quote

I am against this war until someone can give me a reason for it. I'm NOT anti American, although I may disagree with some of your foriegn policies.

I will be looking at Colin Powell's statements later on with interest, because I actually respect that guy.

Hear, hear.

Right now, the whole thing looks really misguided and inept. If there is a case for war, all I can say is that it had better be a damned good one.

Nobody was denouncing anyone as "Anti-American".

"I love my country, but I fear my government" is a remark I see a lot among some people.

I think it is possible to love one's country and its ideals without necessarily approving of what its government is doing. Here's why:

I've heard and seen it over and over in my travels to other countries - "We really like America and its people, but we strongly disapprove of what your government is doing."

The ragheads blame "We, the people" for policy, but they don't realize that it hasn't been "We, the people" for a long, long time time now. It's special interests, PACs, corporations, and of course, what I call the Mandarin Bureaucracy.

All I was saying is, "Please don't torch my flag, because if you do it in front of me, it's going to be over 'cept for the hurtin'."
BTW - Uh, is anybody else getting the sensation that the world is going bonkers?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,120]

>The bombing caused a firestorm killing over 200,000 people in one
> night, plus wounded.

And shortly after that we dropped two atomic bombs on civilian targets killing 350,000.

>Yes Bill the Nazis were real bastards?

No, it was war. Both sides were bastards; that's the way of war. In war you try to kill as many people as you can and try to destroy as much of the other country as you can. War is accepting a 13 year old girl having her arms and face blown off. War is telling families they will never see their sons and daughters again. War is trying out a new inhumanly destructive bomb for the first time and killing a third of a million people, and then claiming that was a good thing. It is September 11th every day. It is the worst thing there is. That's what the Guernica was all about - reminding people that the job of the UN is a noble one, preventing war and its horrors.

Sometimes war is neccessary. But anyone considering it should see it as the absolute last resort, when everything (and I mean everything) else fails. It's not a clean and sanitary video game with smart bombs precision-guided to only evil people, and it's not something to look forward to. It's not "opening a can of whup-ass on Saddam" or anything as cute as that. Guernica was a reminder of that. I hope our leaders do not put that out of their minds as easily as they hid the Guernica from the public's eyes.

[jfields 0]

Bill,

Do you try to make me feel like an inarticulate oaf on purpose, or is it inadvertent?



Basically, "Yeah, what he said!"

[happythoughts 0]

As far as Dresden goes, the principal architect was "Bomber" Harris. Churchill knew about the plan of targeting civilians to weaken the morale of the German population.

However, I would have like to been in that room when the phone call came in from Germany to London...
"Hello, we Germans are calling you British in London to complain about the indiscriminate bombing of civilians..." "Umm... could I put you on hold? A buzz-bomb is about to land..." Anyone see the irony of that?