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Gawain 0
QuoteI'm not arguing that point. But we still better be careful about saying that anyone who would use WMD's against civilians is a monster.
I think there is a distinction. That's like saying we're as bad of a monster for Hiroshima as the Chinese are for Tienamin Square.
Quote>I'm not convinced that wasn't a domestically sourced problem (i.e. a local trying to cause extra panic).
Actually, I'm pretty sure it was. Still, in Rhino's example, his kids are more at risk from a US lab's anthrax than an Iraqi strain of anthrax.
I think we agree, to reiterate (to ensure that we're on the same page), I don't think the Anthrax scare was a foreign based effort. I think it was the result of a domestic effort.
Quote>The Mujahadeen does not equal Al Qaeda.
The Mujahidden was the CIA-funded terrorist resistance to the USSR. As we funded them (via the ISI)...
...Bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia with his organization, and it became known as Al Quaeda.
Some links to research:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1717297.stm
Great links, and not ironically they vindicate my argument almost perfectly:
From the BBC:
QuoteThe Afghan jihad against the Soviet army was backed with American dollars and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
After the Soviet withdrawal, the "Arab Afghans", as Bin Laden's faction came to be called, looked forward to a warm welcome at home.
But Bin Laden quickly became disillusioned by the lack of recognition for his achievements.
This turned to anger when his offer to provide an army of mujahedin to defend the kingdom after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, was turned down.
Instead, half a million US soldiers were invited onto Saudi soil - a historic betrayal in Bin Laden's eyes.
Never a wholehearted supporter of the Saudi regime, Bin Laden now became an out-and-out opponent and began to direct his efforts against the US and its allies in the Middle East.
In 1991 Bin Laden was expelled because of his anti-government activities.
From the Global Research site (which does not mention Al Qaeda in any way BTW):
QuoteCIA's Beardman confirmed, in this regard, that Osama bin Laden was not aware of the role he was playing on behalf of Washington. In the words of bin Laden (quoted by Beardman): "neither I, nor my brothers saw evidence of American help".
Quote>Many of the PEOPLE were in one versus the other, but that does
>not account the existence of both exclusively.
Hmm. Think if Iraq changed its name to Kumar, and Hussein's son became Vice Dictator and CEO of Kumar, we'd say ...... .... It is Hussein and his government that Bush wants to topple, and similarly it is Bin Laden and the leaders of his organization that we want to get our hands on. The name of his current organization is a detail.
Even the BBC article you cited to me disputes that to a point:
QuoteAmerican officials believe Bin Laden's associates may operate in more than 40 countries - in Europe and North America, as well as in the Middle East and Asia.
The fear must now be that even if Bin Laden himself is captured or killed, the movement in which he is a leading figure will be harder to crush.
QuoteNo matter what you want to call them, we funded radical islamic terrorists to go on a jihad against a massive force (the USSR.) Bin Laden was in that group, and he used our money and our weapons to set up Al Quaeda and, later, go after us.
I don't dispute that at all. What I think is interesting though, is that we are the not the exclusive reason for its existence and mission. It was his own country that betrayed him. I think he wants Saudi Arabia to burn a little more than us.
P.S. Sorry my response here was so long.
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Zinger 0
Your right it's super easy to state my opinion in a free country. And I would enlist if I was young enough to be accepted. I would fight for others freedom. And I would also die for freedom, If your not free your not alive anyway.QuoteQuoteI hope we don't go to war but I believe if war is what it takes to get this madman dead then so be it. The world will be a better place with out him.
Easy to say from the safety of your home, or job. If we go to war, are [edit]you[/edit] going to enlist?
------Have a good one!--------
jerry81 10
QuoteI think this 500,000. number is extreme unless Saddam kills his own people with WMD. And even then no one can say we did not warn the people, If I lived there I would of packed up and walked my goat eating kids outta there a long time ago.
I already pointed this out in another thread, but here it goes again. The people do not hear your warnings. The people only hear what their government wants them to hear. And even if some messages from US do get through, they're less likely to be belived than the messages sent by their own country. If you lived there, (and don't take this too personally, it's just an illustration of circumstances) you would be living in constant fear of what might happen, not really knowing what was going on and your kids would be eating government-issued provisions, not goats. Also, walking away would be less easy than it may seem from our point of view.
As for the 500.000 deaths, it's an estimate, and, as I already said, most of those people would die after the war, not in it.
f1freak 0
It may have been said (i didnt read the whole thread) But Bush has been looking for ANY excuse to pick up where his dad dropped the ball, i mean you would have to be blind not to see that...
Just my opinion...
...JUST DONT DIE
rhino 0
AndyMan 7
QuoteMake no mistake about it.. Iraqi soldiers will be running to our troops with white flags again yelling WE HATE SADDHAM!!!! GET HIM OUT!!
I have no doubt. That much is clear.
It's clear that Sadam is a very evil man. It's clear that any person with the intelligence of a rat wouldn't want to live there. It's clear that he's violated fundamental human rights of his citizens.
That puts him in a list of about a hundred different world leaders, all who are quilty of doing the exact same things. Should the US invade Zimbabwe next just because Mugabe is an asshole to his people?
_Am
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
rhino 0
QuoteThat puts him in a list of about a hundred different world leaders, all who are quilty of doing the exact same things. Should the US invade Zimbabwe next just because Mugabe is an asshole to his people?
True.. But now we are on a fight against terror.. And we will seek it out.. lol
Is this war about oil? In some ways. I think it is more about security and stability. Oil effects the security and stability of the modern industrialized world enormously. People are trying to turn everything into some big idealistic crusade. This is ultimately about security and stability.
We've been trying to disarm Iraq for over ten years now. Diplomacy is not working. How much longer do we allow Hussein to play the UN like a bunch of fools? There are a lot more self interested parties in this than just the US. These other parties are just portraying the US as a war monger because it serves their interests right now (looking hard at France, Germany, and Russia). The Europeans and more and more Americans are being duped daily.
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin
Easy to say from the safety of your home, or job. If we go to war, are [edit]you[/edit] going to enlist?
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