War is required, unfortunate as it may be

[JJohnson 0]

If true that is pretty fucked up. But what do you want to happen now? Let them channel cash back to Al Qafucka just cause they did with the IRA?

Now it would be a double edged sword: We are either idiots for allowing it or idiots foe having double standards. Choose you poison.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[JJohnson 0]

Yeah Billy I heard the news this morning that the inspectors were hesitantly optimistic. They may be on to something...but to quote Harvey Keitel,"Let's not start sucking each others dicks just yet."
I hope it works out.

On all the other suff...your wrong, stop blowing smoke up my ass! HAHAHAHAHAHAH The Cold War arms build up only prevented us from going heads up with the Soviets. We still sparred with them in Viet Nam. Plus, neither we nor the Soviets were losers in the war. A more apt comparison would have been Germany building up weapons. Do you think the Soviets would have tolerated Germany behaving like this for 10 years?
Finland was on the wrong side of WWII. As part of their surrender, to this day they are not allowed to have submarines. We don't seem to have a hard time with Finland? Now in current times, the Finns and Russians may not love each other, but they do trade and travel in each others countries.
Iraq doesn't need to trust anybody, they just have to comply. That is the bitch about being the loser in a war. You lose complaining rights....cause you lost. It don't matter how many Iraqis were killed (and we didn't kill all of them, we had help), because none of them would have died if they hadn't of started the war in the first place. If you pick a fight and lose, you got NOTHING to complain about. Spies, you have to expect. You can complain about it...but if you are supposed to be disarming, than you have nothing to hide and the spy has nothing to report.
It also doesn't matter what we reject or accept in the U.N., we are a free country like every other...acting in our best interests, just like all the rest. We just got more money. Do all the countries in the U.N. go along with everything? Are we the only problem child? And we did not lose a war and fail to make good on the surrender, Iraq did. Their feelings towards us, mistrust of us and our example set in other U.N. issues, in no way relieve them of their obligation. We did not commit the crime. We are not being punished.
I'm all for the inspections and hope everything works out. But if Iraq starts stalling and BS'ing again.....What do we do? Say oh you little tricksters you. Let's inspect again?
And no matter how many we killed in the Gulf War, it don't excuse Iraq from their debt. And I hate to sound callous here, but I'd rather it be 100,000 dead Iraqis than an even split of 50,000 US, and 50,000 Iraqis.
Iraq can be a real country anytime it wants. Accept their punishment, come out of their room and play nice with the other kids. Then they can start lying and cheating like civilized people.
I agree with you, but I think you are being way to tolerant and lenient with Iraq.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[jfields 0]

Quote

It also doesn't matter what we reject or accept in the U.N., we are a free country like every other...acting in our best interests, just like all the rest. We just got more money.

So you are basically saying that our economic power is sufficient reason for us to do whatever we want? We have more money, so we build a better military, so we can make other countries do whatever we want, as long as they are poorer than we are?

That seems pretty shortsighted. Based on that logic, you would have had no problem with the British utterly destroying the fledgling American colonies, because they were stronger. And it was cool for so much of eastern Europe to get annexed by Germany, because might made right?

Quote

Do all the countries in the U.N. go along with everything? Are we the only problem child?

Why should we be a problem child at all? Why can't we use our brains and be a real leader?

Quote

Iraq can be a real country anytime it wants. Accept their punishment, come out of their room and play nice with the other kids.

Define "real country". Do we become a "real country" when we "play nice with the other kids"? We aren't yet.

Quote

Then they can start lying and cheating like civilized people.

What wonderful aspirations.

[kallend 2,148]

It's very easy to get all worked up about the "evidence".

Let's not forget some of the previous "evidence" that we so wanted to believe.

Like that Iraq had stolen baby incubators from
Kuwait when they invaded, based on the eye-witness account of a refugee. No, wait, that refugee was a Kuwaiti ambassadors daughter.

Like the Patriot succeeded
in hitting nearly all of the Scuds. Even after the Israeli
defence Minister produced evidence that in Israel they had all missed. Final score, given little fanfare - Scuds 42, Patriots 2 (maybe).

Like that all the Scud launchers that
were destroyed were indeed Scud launchers .... oh wait, they were fuel trucks, but they look soooo much the same.

Like the wonderful intelligence analysis distributed last week, part of which was confirmation of Iraq's terrorism links. Turned out it was a copy of a post-graduate research student's 9-year old term paper.

"There are no US forces in Cambodia"
"I am not a crook"
"Iran? Contras? I'm afraid I don't recall"
"I did not have sex with that woman"

Believe what you want of the government's case, but don't be surprised if others are skeptical.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ifrinn 0]

Talking about terrorism. The US is having the power to destroy the earth four times (correct me if the number isn's right). I personally predict that Hussein is having biological weapons, the question is: is Hussein having the power to destroy the earth four times?
Thats something more and more people are thinking here in Europe, particularly Switzerland, who protects us from such a powerful country like the US?
I don't wanna say there shouldn't be done anything, but I say Bush's way isn't the right and especially not the only one, how it can be solved.

[JJohnson 0]

It's not so much as a matter of who has the power or in what magnitude, but who do you trust with that power? I'm not saying that anyone should or should not be trusted with it.
If ANYONE uses it however it is easier to use biological agents: easier to smuggle and transport, easier to not have traced back to you..etc. Bio weapons scare me a lot more than nuclear.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Ifrinn 0]

true

it matters for me, because we are going to feel the contamination of nuclear weapons, due to the wind, America probably not.
biological weapons I guess nobody knows how strong those are.

[billvon 3,116]

>It's not so much as a matter of who has the power or in what
> magnitude, but who do you trust with that power?

That's the $64,000 question. If we continue with our policies of preemptive invasion and unilateral action it will become clear to the rest of the world who not to trust. I hope I don't see that happen. We can stand up to Iraq, Afghanistan, even France. We can't stand up to the world.

[billvon 3,116]

>Spies, you have to expect. You can complain about it...but if you are
> supposed to be disarming, than you have nothing to hide and the
> spy has nothing to report.

No, they are concerned that the spies are helping the US plan for an invasion. No matter how much you would like Iraq to behave like a lap dog, they still have an interest in not seeing another 100,000 of their people killed. Countries are funny that way.

They have agreed to allow UN inspectors in the country, not US spies. If we put US spies on the team and they kick them out, they have a legitimate greivance and we look like fools. Of course, in our current stance, that wouldn't faze us a bit, since we don't seem to care any more how the US is perceived in the rest of the world.

>It also doesn't matter what we reject or accept in the U.N . . .

It matters a great deal. We're the most powerful country on the planet. If we support the UN it will be a powerful force for world peace. If we reject it it will not be. I am in favor of seeing my children grow up in a world with less, not more, war, so I look forward to the US supporting the UN.

>I'm all for the inspections and hope everything works out. But if Iraq
> starts stalling and BS'ing again.....What do we do? Say oh you little
> tricksters you. Let's inspect again?

Inspect again with 10 times the inspectors and UN troops backing them up. Use all the resources of US intelligence to get to suspected sites for chemical and bioweapons. They can move fast, but they can't move faster than a Harrier.

Then, once you find them, inspect them. If they are found to contain chemical weapons, destroy the weapons and demand the rest of them.
If they resist then they have a war on their hands.

And if you don't find them? Or you find them and destroy them, and they just give up on their games? You just avoided killing hundreds of thousands. Worth it, in my book.

[JJohnson 0]

I'm not sure what kind of fight you're trying to pick here. But twisting words around doesn't change anything. What I said was pretty easy to grasp.

1) No I didn't say economic or military power is reason for us to do whatever we want. I said that in regards to our involvement with the U.N. we are no better or worse than any other country. Get over it. Where is it written that we are the saints?
2) Based on my logic, yes Britiain had the right to destroy us. They owned us in their minds. The fact that we had sufficient military might let us write that history differently didn't it?
3) Germany thought might made right as well. I didn't say it was personal philosphy, but it is a fact that throught history countries with power have used it for their own ends.
4) Be a real leader??? We are. If you think the U.S. is some evil empire and you don't agree with it...move. Show me one other country that does the good in the world that the U.S. does.
The U.S. is going to do what is in our best interests. If they didn't you'd really have something to complain about. The U.S. does play nice with the rest of the world. We negotiate, trade, bribe and do all the things that all the other world powers do to take care of themselves. But we have never invaded another country for the purpose of taking it over.
Unless of course you want to change this discussion to the American Indians.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Ifrinn 0]

fact, the US is the most powerful country, they are in a way responsible for thinks going on in other countries. and they react and help.
But sometimes I think the US doesn't support the right country, or the right way, however this is a point of view.
They look for their own interest, doesn't matter if another country is going to suffer.
The US tries to teach other countries how to be, sometimes they should first look at themselves before correcting somebody else.
Being the most powerful country also means being a model.

[JJohnson 0]

What is the spy looking for? The secret back door of the castle, that gets left open on Thursdays to let the cat out? If the spy sees no weapons, cool we don't invade. If he sees weapons, and sees a way to get them out in an easier manner for the U.S troops, I'm all for spies. All countries have them. Its a big game. Allies spying on each other even. The spies in Iraq are not going to see anything that the inspectors don't anyway. So the spies don't count as a reason for non-compliance, only a good bickering point for Iraq.
If Iraq had a big concern over the death of their population, they would be complying with the terms..kind of like the might be doing now.
I concede that if we supported the U.N. blindly 100%, and threatned to kill everyone who didn't that the U.N. would become a powerful force.
The only way for true world peace is for ALL countries to turn their weapons in at the same time. That isn't going to happen. Besides then China would be the biggest superpower on population alone. That leaves peace through superior firepower. Which does not mean war, but the threat of it. Now we are back to the might makes right thing, which is wrong, but the way of the world anyway....and all this shit is making my head hurt.
While I am all for world peace, I want my country safe and secure first.
You and I want the same end result, we differ on the timing and tolerance.
I am curious about the bio weapons thing. You said we supplied that to Iraq. When did we do that and how?
Also Anthrax and such are some pretty low level shit for bioweapons. It's the stuff that Iraq may have gotten from Russia that bother me. And the fact that a bio lab can be set up in the back of a step van. Harriers ain't going to find a truck parked behind a 7/11. Bio shit is just too easy to hide.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[jfields 0]

I'm not trying to pick a fight at all. I'm just trying to genty remove the rose-colored glasses that are obscuring the realities of the situation.

Throughout this thread, there have been opposites tossed around. Good vs. evil. United States vs. Iraq. Technological ability vs. moral justification. The point I'm trying to make is that things are not so clear-cut. If you look through American history, we are guilty of just about everything we are accusing Iraq of doing.

Have we hid the truth, even from ourselves?
- Look at the FBI under Hoover.

Have we imprisoned our own people?
- Japanese-American internees during WWII.

Have we used weapons of mass destruction?
- Hiroshima & Nagasaki, not to mention things like firebombing.

Have we sponsored terrorism?
- Yes, through CIA funding of rebel groups, for example.

Have we hurt our own people through deliberate actions?
- Unknown and unconsenting drug testing on soldiers.

Quote

Be a real leader??? We are. If you think the U.S. is some evil empire and you don't agree with it...move.

I didn't say we are an evil empire. I'm just saying that as good as we are, we still have lots of room for improvement. I cherish the fact that I *can* make that comment, due to the freedoms we have.

Quote

Show me one other country that does the good in the world that the U.S. does.

Arguably, one could cite the British. They are involved in just about every multinational peacekeeping mission around. I think they've learned their lessons on empire-building, and have grasped the true meaning of statesmanship. It isn't about forcing the entire world to do your will because of military dominance. It is about persuading other countries to work with you, to be a team player, and to try to prompt change peacefully before resorting to other options.

I'm pleased that the Brits have decided to join us in pressuring Iraq. Their partnership makes it a more global force. Their input might help balance some of Bush's rough edges and lack of tact.

It has been said by numerous people throughout this thread, that we aren't defending Iraq, but we want to try all other measures before going to war. The horror of war and the repercussions for our country can't be overestimated. It really should be the *last* resort.

[JJohnson 0]

Again, this is not my personal feeling, but just an interpretation of human nature.
Yes the U.S. looks for it's own interests. Every country does. Show me one country that doesn't think of it's own interests. And yes, if one country does what is in their best interests, yes somebody is going to get screwed. This is nothing new here in the history of mankind. We have not changed much in the last couple of thousand years.
Being the most powerful country does not mean being a role model, it means they were the luckiest and came out on top, if WWII had ended differently and we were all speaking German...we'd all be complaing about those damn Nazis and there foreign policy. . Like anyone, anywhere...once you achieve that kind of state you are going to want to protect that.
When the Brits were the bad asses on the block, did they throw flowers around and spread world peace? France? Italy? No they all took care of themselves first.
So that means that sometimes the U.S. is going to things you don't like...just like any other country. Do not hold the U.S. to a higher standard than you hold your country to. It's called being hypocritcal.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[JJohnson 0]

Of course you are from Switzerland, should have checked your profile. I guess you guys can hold the rest of the world to higher ideal.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Ifrinn 0]

thx :P


Do not hold the U.S. to a higher standard than you hold your country to.

---

thing is: from our point of view, it's not us holding the US to a higher standard, it's the US itself ...

[billvon 3,116]

>What is the spy looking for? The secret back door of the castle,
>that gets left open on Thursdays to let the cat out?

No, things like communications centers, where power substations are, where defensive positions are, where irrigation pumps are, where refineries are. The usual stuff you want to know if you want to destroy a country. Write down those coordinates, punch em into cruise missiles, and you take them out without any trouble.

>I concede that if we supported the U.N. blindly 100%, and threatned
> to kill everyone who didn't that the U.N. would become a powerful
> force.

So don't support them blindly. A reasonable person could find a middle ground between supporting them blindly and using them as window dressing.

>While I am all for world peace, I want my country safe and secure first.

I do too, but I prefer to go after our known enemies than someone we think someday might be an enemy that hurts us. Maybe. Personally, I want to get the leader of the group that blew up the WTC. Remember him? Despite some resemblances, there's no connection between him and Hussein.

>I am curious about the bio weapons thing. You said we supplied that
> to Iraq. When did we do that and how?

From the Sunday Herald:

"Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene."

[JJohnson 0]

If that shit is true, we are the dumbest fuckers ever to walk the Earth.

I'm still not convinced that there is not a connection between Hussien and Bin Laden, or between Hussien and other terrosits organizations that would attack us....but again, not the issue here.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[rhino 0]

Quote

I'm still not convinced that there is not a connection between Hussien and Bin Laden, or between Hussien and other terrosits organizations that would attack us....but again, not the issue here.
JJ

For some strange reason? I would tend to agree.,..

Rhino

[kallend 2,148]

Quote

When the Brits were the bad asses on the block, did they throw flowers around and spread world peace? France? Italy? No they all took care of themselves first.

Sometimes it's better to learn from the mistakes of others rather than repeating them. I doubt you'll find many Brits wanting to be the World's policeman again, or to be the bad ass on the block again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JJohnson 0]

It is always better to learn from the mistakes of others, particulatly in our sport....

But I would think that almost any country would trade places with us....We have much that is desirable. They would of course think themselves smarter than us and be able to do better than we have...and then human nature would kick in and history would again begin to repeat itself and on and on.....

Fuck it lets save everyone the trouble and start the nuclear holocaust now.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

Like that Iraq had stolen baby incubators from
Kuwait when they invaded, based on the eye-witness account of a refugee. No, wait, that refugee was a Kuwaiti ambassadors daughter.

Like the Patriot succeeded
in hitting nearly all of the Scuds. Even after the Israeli
defence Minister produced evidence that in Israel they had all missed. Final score, given little fanfare - Scuds 42, Patriots 2 (maybe).

Like that all the Scud launchers that
were destroyed were indeed Scud launchers .... oh wait, they were fuel trucks, but they look soooo much the same.

You are exagerating to attempt to make your point. You are also forgetting that the large majority of the information the US government puts out is correct. Pulling out some inconsistencies does not make your point. There is no direct link between past inconsistencies and present information.

Now, about the Patriot hitting the Scuds. It did hit the Scuds. It just didn't destroy the war heads which allowed them to fall and explode on civilian targets anyway. It is a success when you think that they weren't designed to even hit a missile.

The Air Force destroyed a large number of Scud launchers also. They also destroyed a lot of dummy launchers. Reporting during war is hard to do correctly. It is called the "fog of war". It is not due to willfull deceit but the chaos of the battlefield. I've had a 9 man enemy squad reported as a 39 man infantry platoon due to multiple reporting and confusion on the battlefield. It happens.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[algboy 0]

"To finish the statement... Those fuckers flew planes into our buildings and woke up OUR BEE HIVE.. Fuck them! We have to do what we have to do. As far as I am concerned it is them or us. I would rather say HIM or us. The money trail runs right through Saddhams pocket.. He's going down. All the backtracking in the world won't save his ass now.."

Whoa, John Wayne! Grab a cold one. Where are you getting this crap? Our gov't hasn't even had an inquiry into 9/11 after nearly a year and a half! We're supposed to swallow the story, while the rubble was still smoldering, that al Quida did it (by the same vaunted spooks who didn't have a clue before?) and that by bombing Afghanistan we were striking at the heart of al Quida. New game in town: Where In The World Is Osama? Problem is, now Bush doesn't care anymore--oh, really?? It's Saddam who's the boogeyman. Yeah--and I've got some swampland in FL to sell ya.
Have you even heard about the scandal rocking Britain right now? Probably not, if you're watching US media. Trouble is--Blair's vaunted dossier against Iraq and Saddam was a forgery and based upon 12-year old info. Ooops!!!. I guess Colin (Mai Lai) Powell shouldn't have praised the crappy research so highly. WAIT!!! It's Level Orange time! Everyone run for cover. Put on your tinfoil hats. Saddam is coming.
U.S.A.---U.S.A.---U.S.A.--U.S.A.!!!

“Keep your elbow up!"

[misskriss 0]

The war is going to happen........probably starting anywhere between this friday the 14th and the 28th....so I've heard..

[algboy 0]

I'd be the last to disagree. War IS going down--believe it. The 101st has its marching orders.
I'm more concerned about a false-flag terror op happening to push the cause forward and silence the peace movement.

"States should have the right to enact reasonable laws and restrictions particularly to end the inhumane practice of ending a life that otherwise could live."
--Dubbya Bush, Cleveland, June 29, 2000

“Keep your elbow up!"