jdhill 0 #26 February 13, 2003 QuoteI've posted the links so that people can check to see if I've edited out of context. I noticed you left the link off for the Somalia action... so I guess your comment was purely editorial. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #27 February 13, 2003 "The US was a decisive factor in every theater of operations, with the possible exception of Eastern Europe." I'd say the 'lend/lease' scheme saw a significant amount of hardware going into the Eastern theatre via Murmansk and Archangel. So yeah, even over there too Josh......-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #28 February 13, 2003 lend/lease was significant in the East, but I'm not so sure about decisive. But if you say so Nac, I'll go along. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #29 February 13, 2003 Does anyone know what Tonto means in Spanish?Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #30 February 13, 2003 QuoteDoes anyone know what Tonto means in Spanish? Hey, check my post above.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
charliezulu 0 #31 February 13, 2003 Quote Yes please. Sweet preferably. Oh and an extra large Sprite. Think we'll be sat here a while Dude - sweet popcorn?!! That's just plain nasty! CZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #32 February 13, 2003 Quotea decisive factor in every theater of operations, with the possible exception of Eastern Europe Without material and supplies from the US, the millions of Russian soldiers that were mustered would have had a little more difficult time with the Nazis, you think? A war is not won by troops in the field alone. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #33 February 13, 2003 So you got all your info and perspective from one web page on the internet, huh? You are criticizing America and you are from South Africa? Would you like it if I publish a little history of your country? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #34 February 13, 2003 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a decisive factor in every theater of operations, with the possible exception of Eastern Europe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Without material and supplies from the US, the millions of Russian soldiers that were mustered would have had a little more difficult time with the Nazis, you think? OK, I hereby revise my statement... the US was a decisive factor in EVERY theater of operations... I do think, however, that lend/lease kept them in the fight until the winter set in, which in turn gave the Allies time to get the second front kicked off, taking the pressure off Russia. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #35 February 13, 2003 http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/37a/032.html Here's one from Amnesty International pleading with South Africa not to supply the Rwandan Military with many of the weapons they used to massacare 500,000 people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #36 February 13, 2003 World War II was actually won by the Greeks. They caused such a headache for the invading Italians in the Spring of 1941 that Hitler sent Wermacht troops to assist his good buddy Mussolini. That required the delay of Barbarossa, which in turn meant the German advance ran into the Russian winter and they didn't take Moscow (which they certainly would have done had they started on time). This allowed the Russians time to regroup for the major battles of 1942 that ground down the German army well before any US troops were deployed in the ETO. Had Russia fallen in 1941, all the combat divisions on the Eastern front would have returned to the west, making D-Day an impossibility. Hitler would have had the entire economic resources of continental Europe at his disposal, and we'd all be speaking German now. So thank the Greeks.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #37 February 13, 2003 And you are telling me this because ???????????// Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #38 February 13, 2003 Quoteand we'd all be speaking German now. All of Europe may be speaking German, but I don't think the German Navy could support a leap across the Atlantic, as it failed to effectivly isolate the UK and Russian ports. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #39 February 13, 2003 Delaying the Italians? The same Italian army that lost in Ethiopia? Bwaahaaa. "Sir, we may have to retreat, the Ethiopians have spears and there are no decent cafes in the entire country." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #40 February 13, 2003 Gentlemen, wasn't this a discussion about the US? What has WW2 to do with Iraq? The US is hardly the same country anymore, JFK has been killed, the leadership is all different, even the people changed. And what does South Africa have to do with this? Seems to me that it doesn't matter where the person is from. You should consider what he has to say on it's own merit. Argue with the message, not the messenger. Just trying to keep a lid on the flames. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #41 February 13, 2003 QuoteAnd you are telling me this because ???????????// Just to point out that in order for John Wayne to win WWII, it was first necesssary for a bunch of others to not lose it. A little history that Hollywood hasn't addressed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #42 February 13, 2003 Quote Just watched the movie, and the news... Can you point me to a link with more info? Or should I point you to links from the Institute of security studies papers on the impact US abandoned weapons are still having on Africa? Please do, I'm too lazy to find it when I get home. I see you're getting a little help researching the gun control issue.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #43 February 13, 2003 Unfortunately I cannot link you to my personal experiances, as I was directly involved in US operations in Somalia, you should be able to do a quick search to find out more... but here is a start...http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unosomi.htm As you will see through more research, nobody was a winner in Somalia. As for the movie, it is about 1 day out of 2 years, far from being the full story of US involvement there. QuoteOr should I point you to links from the Institute of security studies papers on the impact US abandoned weapons are still having on Africa? Shall I point you to some links about South African arms proliferation? JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #44 February 13, 2003 Nope, we were still ahead on the A-bomb and the entirety of Europe would be a garbage heap."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #45 February 13, 2003 >Nope, we were still ahead on the A-bomb and the entirety of Europe >would be a garbage heap. From the INSS: "American and British nuclear physicists felt they started their A-bomb projects considerably behind their German counterparts and feared Hitler's forces would be the first to have use of atomic arms. This evaluation was based on a number of considerations . . ." http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/41naz.html Do some research on Peenemunde and Knut Haukelid. You'll find out how close Germany was to developing both A-bombs and ICBM's. One of the biggest fictions we've written in the past 50 years was that the allies won the war based on scientific research, weapons development and sheer military skill. We won it primarily because we could throw more weapons and people at it than Germany could. If anything, our best decision during WWII was to fully utilize our greatest strength as a country - making a lot of stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #46 February 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteAnd you are telling me this because ???????????// QuoteJust to point out that in order for John Wayne to win WWII, it was first necesssary for a bunch of others to not lose it. A little history that Hollywood hasn't addressed. Please paste the specific post I made that you felt required you to tell me this. You also need to check your attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #47 February 14, 2003 QuoteI've done a lot of reading and a lot of research on your history. Far more than I suspect many of the US contributers have done. Be carefull with this statement. I'll guarantee you that I've studied more US military history than you. Sitting at a desk reading about war does not make your argument about the justness of a war anymore valid. There are a few people on here that think school learning can replace actual experience. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skystorm 0 #48 February 14, 2003 Quote Gentlemen, wasn't this a discussion about the US? What has WW2 to do with Iraq? The US is hardly the same country anymore, JFK has been killed, the leadership is all different, even the people changed. And what does South Africa have to do with this? Seems to me that it doesn't matter where the person is from. You should consider what he has to say on it's own merit. Argue with the message, not the messenger. Just trying to keep a lid on the flames. Thank you, Push. Gene Police: "YOU!! Out of the pool, NOW!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #49 February 14, 2003 Hi. My post was inspired by the "French Military History" post which attacked one of your most significant historical allies, and many Americans went along with that. the Statue of Liberty is a gift from the French. Without the French your country may not even have seen its independance at the time that it did. We all have errors in our past - but we should strive not to engineer them for our future. I've lived in the US. I did my tandem and AFF ratings in the US. I jump US gear. I have a US girlfriend. I cried for hours glued to the TV on 911. But slowly - since then - I've been feeling "enough" or perhaps that your justifyable anger at 911 is becoming misdirected - and has reached the point that you're now getting angry at the world. You're a powerful nation, and that scares me. Who's next? I've had my own war. Spilt blood. Seen friends die. I'm just feeling that it doesn't HAVE to be that way here. Not now. Not yet. SA was on the brink of a bloodbath until 2 opposite leaders thought of their people and put them over their ideology. We're small, and we're new. We have a constitution and many rights we never had a scant 10 years back. We gave peace a chance.It's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #50 February 14, 2003 Hi Josh. I can understand your being upset with my post. Being there makes you committed to the time and the place and the people. My comment on Somalia was a lack of disipline on my part. As I put that piece together it occured to me how expansionist the US was/is/ can be percieved to be. I've carried a rifle for my country - and was on the wrong side of the moral dividing line. Vietnam vets will know this feeling. Gulf war vets maybe not. I'm sorry man. There are times I feel we're all losers, and there are so many people rushing off to make mistakes I already have. I try and stop them on the DZ - but I can't stop them here. I'm aware of SA's involvement with arms export. It was the anti apartheid embargo which gave birth to our arms industry, and it hurts that some people who were protected by that embargo are using its offspring to spread more death on our own continent. Blue Skies, tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kmcguffee 0 #47 February 14, 2003 QuoteI've done a lot of reading and a lot of research on your history. Far more than I suspect many of the US contributers have done. Be carefull with this statement. I'll guarantee you that I've studied more US military history than you. Sitting at a desk reading about war does not make your argument about the justness of a war anymore valid. There are a few people on here that think school learning can replace actual experience. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skystorm 0 #48 February 14, 2003 Quote Gentlemen, wasn't this a discussion about the US? What has WW2 to do with Iraq? The US is hardly the same country anymore, JFK has been killed, the leadership is all different, even the people changed. And what does South Africa have to do with this? Seems to me that it doesn't matter where the person is from. You should consider what he has to say on it's own merit. Argue with the message, not the messenger. Just trying to keep a lid on the flames. Thank you, Push. Gene Police: "YOU!! Out of the pool, NOW!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #49 February 14, 2003 Hi. My post was inspired by the "French Military History" post which attacked one of your most significant historical allies, and many Americans went along with that. the Statue of Liberty is a gift from the French. Without the French your country may not even have seen its independance at the time that it did. We all have errors in our past - but we should strive not to engineer them for our future. I've lived in the US. I did my tandem and AFF ratings in the US. I jump US gear. I have a US girlfriend. I cried for hours glued to the TV on 911. But slowly - since then - I've been feeling "enough" or perhaps that your justifyable anger at 911 is becoming misdirected - and has reached the point that you're now getting angry at the world. You're a powerful nation, and that scares me. Who's next? I've had my own war. Spilt blood. Seen friends die. I'm just feeling that it doesn't HAVE to be that way here. Not now. Not yet. SA was on the brink of a bloodbath until 2 opposite leaders thought of their people and put them over their ideology. We're small, and we're new. We have a constitution and many rights we never had a scant 10 years back. We gave peace a chance.It's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #50 February 14, 2003 Hi Josh. I can understand your being upset with my post. Being there makes you committed to the time and the place and the people. My comment on Somalia was a lack of disipline on my part. As I put that piece together it occured to me how expansionist the US was/is/ can be percieved to be. I've carried a rifle for my country - and was on the wrong side of the moral dividing line. Vietnam vets will know this feeling. Gulf war vets maybe not. I'm sorry man. There are times I feel we're all losers, and there are so many people rushing off to make mistakes I already have. I try and stop them on the DZ - but I can't stop them here. I'm aware of SA's involvement with arms export. It was the anti apartheid embargo which gave birth to our arms industry, and it hurts that some people who were protected by that embargo are using its offspring to spread more death on our own continent. Blue Skies, tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
