billvon 3,118 #26 February 14, 2003 >Some body has been selling him the precursers and the technology, >despite the embargo! Uh, that was us. We sold him chemical weapon precursors, anthrax, botulism and west nile cultures, and nuclear bomb triggers (pulse neutron sources.) I don't think France and Germany have anything to fear there; if they find labels in their weapons labs, chances are they will say "made in the USA." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #27 February 14, 2003 Quote>Some body has been selling him the precursers and the technology, >despite the embargo! Uh, that was us. We sold him chemical weapon precursors, anthrax, botulism and west nile cultures, and nuclear bomb triggers (pulse neutron sources.) I don't think France and Germany have anything to fear there; if they find labels in their weapons labs, chances are they will say "made in the USA." Then it looks like the UN should have all the proof they need! Yep, and don't forget the French and German invoices and reciepts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #28 February 14, 2003 Quote>Some body has been selling him the precursers and the technology, >despite the embargo! Uh, that was us. We sold him chemical weapon precursors, anthrax, botulism and west nile cultures, and nuclear bomb triggers (pulse neutron sources.) I don't think France and Germany have anything to fear there; if they find labels in their weapons labs, chances are they will say "made in the USA." Bill, Harry was referring to trade agreements that France and Germany (and Russia) have with Iraq, post Gulf War -- how much "dual-use" stuff got sold to them that says "Viva la France" on it? The bio-stuff I'm aware of our role in, during the 80s. The nuclear triggers though? --- Show me a source -- I don't buy it.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #29 February 14, 2003 QuoteQuote>Some body has been selling him the precursers and the technology, >despite the embargo! Uh, that was us. We sold him chemical weapon precursors, anthrax, botulism and west nile cultures, and nuclear bomb triggers (pulse neutron sources.) I don't think France and Germany have anything to fear there; if they find labels in their weapons labs, chances are they will say "made in the USA." Bill, Harry was referring to trade agreements that France and Germany (and Russia) have with Iraq, post Gulf War -- how much "dual-use" stuff got sold to them that says "Viva la France" on it? The bio-stuff I'm aware of our role in, during the 80s. The nuclear triggers though? --- Show me a source -- I don't buy it. From the US Customs Service web site: "In March 1990, Customs agents working with authorities in Britain intercepted 40 nuclear trigger devices destined for Iraq following an 18-month undercover investigation. The devices, known as "krytrons," had been purchased from a company in California and were custom-made for nuclear warheads. Two primary smugglers were later convicted in Britain." http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/hot-new/pressrel/2001/1210-02.htm Buy it now?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #30 February 14, 2003 >The bio-stuff I'm aware of our role in, during the 80s. The nuclear >triggers though? --- Show me a source -- I don't buy it. From the Washington Post: "Halliburton came under fire in the early '90s for supplying Libya and Iraq with oil drilling equipment which could be used to detonate nuclear weapons. Halliburton Logging Services, a former subsidiary, was charged with shipping six pulse neutron generators through Italy to Libya. In 1995, the company pled guilty to criminal charges that it violated the U.S. ban on exports to Libya. Halliburton was fined $1.2 million and will pay $2.61 million in civil penalties." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/articles/halliburtonprimer.html Note that Halliburton is, of course, Dick Cheney's company, although he was not CEO at the time the neutron generators were sold to Iraq and Libya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #31 February 14, 2003 Quotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/articles/halliburtonprimer.html Note that Halliburton is, of course, Dick Cheney's company, although he was not CEO at the time the neutron generators were sold to Iraq and Libya. Now when you were saying "we were selling" the inference means the US Govt. -- which was, in fact, not the case. Your play on words isn't funny. To Kallend: Yes, thank you for the info. My point being that the US Govt was not selling that type of technology.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #32 February 14, 2003 Surely you can't be serious. Over the Euro?I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #33 February 14, 2003 >Now when you were saying "we were selling" the inference means the > US Govt. -- which was, in fact, not the case. Your play on words isn't > funny. No, I meant what I said - we as in the US sold nuclear triggers to Iraq. The company that did it was Halliburton, a US company. They were later prosecuted for doing so. As neither you nor I work directly for the US government, I didn't mean "we" to mean the US government. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #34 February 14, 2003 QuoteNo, I meant what I said - we as in the US sold nuclear triggers to Iraq. The company that did it was Halliburton, a US company. They were later prosecuted for doing so. As neither you nor I work directly for the US government, I didn't mean "we" to mean the US government. "We, as in the US" still means the "us" as the United States. The United States and its conduct with other countries means the US Govt, as they are the defacto representative of our nation to the world. A private enterprise acting on its own does not equal "we" or the US Government. That's why we have a Department of State. Saying that Haliburton as a US company represents "we" is also like saying that "we" tried to sell secrets to Libya, even though that is the alleged action of Brian Regan, an individual. It's still a play on words and it doesn't properly assign accountability.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #35 February 14, 2003 >A private enterprise acting on its own does not equal "we" or the US > Government. That's why we have a Department of State. OK, in that case I will retract my statement above, and amend it to "US companies sold nuclear bomb triggers, chemical weapon precursors and biological agent cultures to Iraq." I'll try to be more clear on that in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #36 February 14, 2003 QuoteQuotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/articles/halliburtonprimer.html Note that Halliburton is, of course, Dick Cheney's company, although he was not CEO at the time the neutron generators were sold to Iraq and Libya. Now when you were saying "we were selling" the inference means the US Govt. -- which was, in fact, not the case. Your play on words isn't funny. To Kallend: Yes, thank you for the info. My point being that the US Govt was not selling that type of technology. Well, I don't know for sure but I doubt the French or German governments were selling WMD stuff either. They are both essentially capitalist societies, just like we are.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #37 February 14, 2003 Quote>A private enterprise acting on its own does not equal "we" or the US > Government. That's why we have a Department of State. OK, in that case I will retract my statement above, and amend it to "US companies sold nuclear bomb triggers, chemical weapon precursors and biological agent cultures to Iraq." I'll try to be more clear on that in the future. Apparently if a French company sells stuff to Iraq, it's OK to blame France, but if a US company does the same, we shouldn't blame the US. Nice logic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #38 February 14, 2003 QuoteSurely you can't be serious. Over the Euro? Well, Harry, I'm not an economist but I am well aware of the tremendous advantage to the ecomomy of a country who's currency is used worldwide as a reserve currency. Everyone has to pay for oil in $US, but only the US gets to print them. What happens to us if OPEC decides it will only accept Euros. Suddenly we have to earn our gas money instead of printing it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #39 February 14, 2003 QuoteApparently if a French company sells stuff to Iraq, it's OK to blame France, but if a US company does the same, we shouldn't blame the US. Nice logic. I didn't intend to convey that, but the basis of Iraqi trade agreements with France and Germany probably weren't signed by ABC Company. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2757797.stm <<<<So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #40 February 14, 2003 >Apparently if a French company sells stuff to Iraq, it's OK to blame > France, but if a US company does the same, we shouldn't blame the > US. Nice logic. Did I say blame? People/organizations in both countries sold stuff to the Iraqis. Seems like a bad idea in both cases. We should avoid doing that in the future. My primary purpose in posting that was not to assign blame to any one country, but rather to point out that we all contributed to allowing Hussein to get his hands on the ingredients for WMD. (And by 'all' I mean US companies, including our vice president's former company, french private companies, french state owned companies etc.) It's not pleasant to contemplate that if, god forbid, a WMD is used in the future against the US, parts of it may have been supplied by the US. But contemplate it we must if we're going to avoid doing it in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #41 February 15, 2003 Well, my point was that, even for the most opportunistic, the exchange spread versus the political and other economic risk didn't seem to be worth the cost. Time will tell, but that's why I took my position. Skydiving Sunday, HarryI don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites