nitrodan 0 #1 February 13, 2003 Has anyone ever heard of Navy pilot Micheal S Speiker. After reading about him I have lost a lot of faith in our Military to protect our servicemen and women. He was shot down in 1991 during the fist night of the Gulf War, a search and rescue operation was never launched and he was presumed dead and pronounced KIA after an investigation of this case he was returned to MIA status in 2001 and at that time was believed to be still alive by many of the investigators. This is not the first case of this as it also acurred in Laos during the vietnam war to several pilots David Hrdlicka was one if my memory serves me correctly. I must say that I agree with Bush that something must be done in Iraq and that military action is the only answer, However if it had been done right the first time Commander Speiker might be home today instead of left behind.DAN SMITH www.skydivewichita.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #2 February 13, 2003 Let's go get him.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blewaway5 0 #3 February 13, 2003 Agreed. While I'm normally hesitant to endorse violence since it tends to be painful for everyone involved there are moments when I'm all for it. This is one of them. I don't care if it's 100 people or 1 person, if someone is holding one of our soldiers against their will then that person is a P.O.W. who needs rescued. Our country has the deepest obligation to rescue those people. I don't care what it takes, I don't care how many of the enemy we kill to do it, and I don't care if we lose people doing it. Maybe you all think I'm a bit extreme, but I just feel that we have that commitment to the people who risk it all to serve. They accept the fact that they may die for their country, but they aren't going out there looking to die, so we should do all we can to keep them alive and well. I could go on and on about this, but I'll quit while it's only just barely a rant Truman Sparks for President Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #4 February 13, 2003 You in, or been in the military????? Its a different thing to say that if you have been ready to go down range where the rounds fly both ways. I was on DRF 1 during 9/11...We were ready to go, and would have if they said go. Locked, cocked, and ready. But we didn't WANT to go..... When you look left, and look right...and realize that at least one of them, maybe you, will not be comming home. I think this is something that should be done, and done right....but I am not happy about it. Ron Former 11B B 2/325 AIR 82nd Airborne. Which I have just been told just shipped out to Kuwait. Godspeed brothers."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #5 February 13, 2003 I think the general public has been snowed a little bit on this one. Speiker has been missing and is being carried as a POW. The search for him has NEVER stopped, it has been and IS an on going thing. I know Mrs. Speiker feels that the Gov't has closed the case on the search effort and has even had a book published, but I can tell you with 100% assuredness that it has never been considered a "closed" case. Iraq is a big place and there are some extenuating circumstances that I won't get into here for the sake of bandwidth and other reasons. There is alot the general public is not aware of and to some extent, those in the military and Gov't that don't have a need to know. This ranges from this topic to many others. Everyone who is screaming "show me the evidence" needs to realize that information can't always be made available to the general public since it can be self defeating in the long run. Rest assured that Speiker has not been forgotten and the search will continue until there is substantial evidence to prove that he is or isn't alive."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrodan 0 #6 February 13, 2003 If you were on the ground in a hostile country during war time wouldn't you expect someone to be coming to get you a little sooner than 11 years later. I know that its not always possible to do anything in a hurry but this isn't the first time we left someone behind. My question is Why don't we have a better way of accounting for missing personnel and why does our government two step around this issue. Is re-election really more important than the life of an American, any American.DAN SMITH www.skydivewichita.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #7 February 13, 2003 QuoteIf you were on the ground in a hostile country during war time wouldn't you expect someone to be coming to get you a little sooner than 11 years later. I know that its not always possible to do anything in a hurry but this isn't the first time we left someone behind. My question is Why don't we have a better way of accounting for missing personnel and why does our government two step around this issue. Is re-election really more important than the life of an American, any American. Based on that comment I'm assuming your not familiar with what actually happened when Speiker was shot down otherwise I think you wouldn't be asking that question. I'm not going to go into the 5W's on how this incident occured but one of the contributing factors in it was the manner in which it did happen, which is very unheard of. Like I said, no one has been left behind intentionaly. There has been an on going Gov't body of people who have actually continued to look for remains and evidence of living Americans in Vietnam to this day in conjuction with the Viet gov't. I don't know of any way ANYONE could better account for people or even objects that are lost during the time of war. When it comes to people it really is dependant on who that person was with when he was shot down ,taken prisoner or last radio contact to report this information and lots of times there are gaps in this info.The mechanism to recover personnel during the time of war and even after it is over is Immense. If I even attempted to try and explain a small part of it, you would be overwhelmed at the assets our Gov't commits to just this one issue. If you think that this is just a fly by the seat of your pants operation that is given no thought or consideration you are GREATLY mistaken. As far as politics go, that is for Politicians. Regardless of who is in the chair, the search will continue until that person comes home or evidence of his death is found. Politicians use it as a platform to promote themselves."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrodan 0 #8 February 13, 2003 On Jan 17 1991 we lost two aircraft. I agree that we have the ability to handle it. what bothers me are the things that slip through the cracks. I will not ask you to explain the mechanism to me although i'm sure i would not be overwhelmed( I've spent years reading on and researching the subject) with all our resources we had trouble confirming the fate of this pilot. I know that alot of it was caused by assumption I'm just suprised that it was allowed to happen. I have read the reports that are availible to the public (books are usually one sided) Based on what I've seen two other pilots saw the flash that is believed to be speikers plane being hit with an air to air missile one of these pilots reported seeing a secondary explosion (several years later it was detirmined that this was the ejection rockets) Those are the facts that I've seen about what happened when he was shot down if you have seen something I havent please enlighten me I'm not arguing with you I just want to know if this is correct or not.DAN SMITH www.skydivewichita.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #9 February 14, 2003 I'm not blowing you off, but like I said, there are specific issues I really don't want to get into. Your brief synopsis is pretty much the cookie cutter version of what everyone believes happened and that information was gathered after the fact when Speiker failed to return. The pilots who were there with him didn't think he had been shot down(were not certain) and they received no radio transmissions from the ground indicating Speiker had indeed crashed even after it was determined he was missing. If he had transmitted ANYTHING from the time he hit the ground to the subsequent days that followed it would of been picked up. Most shoot downs have some Comms either while punching out,under canopy or once on the ground to even during evasion with rescue forces. Speiker was never heard trying to communicate even though rescue efforts where looking for him in force. With all the mechanisms in place it really boils down to the guy on the ground. If you don't try and make comms or you try to make comms from underneath a space blanket or if you fail to use ground marking methods, trying to find someone is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack.Compound all that with a war going on and it becomes a very daunting task indeed."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrodan 0 #10 February 14, 2003 There are three diffirent reports of ground coms. picked up on sat. photos and radio clicks are said to have been heard on a radio freq. that only pilots used in case of emergency( this last part is not a fact the book states it but I havent seen it any where else) I could go into greater detail on the shoot down I just gave you the basics of what I've read. I am good friends with the son of a pilot who's been missing since 65 and I ran across the Speiker case while looking through some documents a few weeks ago.DAN SMITH www.skydivewichita.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #11 February 14, 2003 you have a PM"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #12 February 14, 2003 QuoteYou in, or been in the military????? E-5 SGT in the U.S. Marines. 8 years. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #13 February 14, 2003 QuoteHas anyone ever heard of Navy pilot Micheal S Speiker. After reading about him I have lost a lot of faith in our Military to protect our servicemen and women. No offense to anyone but this is B.S. US armed forces have sent in force to recover pilots intelligence already knew were dead. As much as every leftist american thinker (I am one) believes E-Vile of the US gov't, this simply does not happen. How low will the left sink to discredit justified force? Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #14 February 14, 2003 I'd love to build a special forces team made of former military personell, armed to the teeth that do nothing but rescue our boys.. God Damn what a way to live!!!!! Get's me pumped up just thinking about it.... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrodan 0 #15 February 14, 2003 I can't don't know how to post the links here but there tons of info on this case all over the net. You should read some of it its pretty interesting.DAN SMITH www.skydivewichita.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #16 February 14, 2003 Sounds like the A Team just got a new member! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 February 14, 2003 If you only knew how serious I am.. We could run covert ops into Iraq very easily with Barret 50cals.. We could do some serious damage for the cause... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #18 February 14, 2003 'We could run covert ops into Iraq very easily with Barret 50cals.. ' Wouldn't be covert for long . I understand the sentiment but it all sounds very Iron eagle. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #19 February 14, 2003 I know a place we can get them cheap... With some really cool rounds Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #20 February 14, 2003 Yes, the missing should be accounted for. However, if that downed aviator isn't signalling where he is, it's tough to find him. In SE Asia, the terrain was extremely rugged in some places, making extraction difficult. If you want to have an idea, please see "Escape from Laos", by Dieter Dengler, and "Into the Mouth of the Cat", by Malcolm McConnell. A featureless desert is very different from a limestone karst range, but the difficulty is the same - trying to find a needle in a haystack. Also, the services will sometimes keep missing aviators classified as POW or MIA, because declaring them dead means that the GI's family won't get pay and benefits anymore. Although I can't remember where I read it, in SE Asia some pilots, who knew the above-mentioned detail, would sometimes report seeing a parachute even though in truth they saw their comrade's aircraft fly into the side of a mountain."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrodan 0 #21 February 14, 2003 We never demanded the return of prisoners from Loas since we were not at war with them the Pathet Loa held at least two pilots for most of the veitnam war. I'm not arguing with anyone on this just stating facts that have been documented many times by several different sources. DAN SMITH www.SKYDIVE WICHITA.COMDAN SMITH www.skydivewichita.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #22 February 14, 2003 >We could run covert ops into Iraq very easily with Barret 50cals . . . I think using .50 ammo on covert missions might be a bit self defeating . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #23 February 14, 2003 Quote>We could run covert ops into Iraq very easily with Barret 50cals . . . I think using .50 ammo on covert missions might be a bit self defeating . . . Noting that the two points I'll address are completly off the original topic, I'll address them none the less in an attempt to enlighten. As glamourous as it may seem in the movies, no SOF guy is gonna run a operation like the one that was mentioned. Our own Gov't would more than like ly stop it from happening, and they have in the past. Plain and simple, that shit doesn't happen. Having carried and used the Barret M82A1A .50 cal, short and long version, I can say it is a formable weapon but very specific in it's role. Shooting people with a 50 cal is technically against the Geneva convention, but shooting the equipment they are in is not. The Barret is largely employed for material interdiction and with a range of 1,800 meters with scope it has the capability to take a lot of things out from a great distance which can be benificial for some operations. If used correctly, it can very difficult if not impossible to detect where a shot came from,(especially from a mile out).People usually start noticing it when you shoot 55 gal drums and they start exploding or you start shooting Armor piercing rounds into their vehicles.However, when you start shooting Generator step up units or critical pieces of machinery it generally goes unnoticed except for the fact that the lights have gone out or the microwave towers aren't working any more between point A and point B. So, yes a Barret could be used and it wouldn't neccissarily be self defeating if employed correctly for a mission specific target(s)"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #24 February 15, 2003 Just a recent head line to show that the search is not over. POW Recalls Return As Caskets Reach U.S. By JAYMES SONG .c The Associated Press HICKAM AIR FORCE BASE, Hawaii (AP) - The return of the remains of American servicemen killed in Vietnam reminded retired Air Force Maj. Steve Long of his own arrival in Hawaii after years as a prisoner of war. ``The only difference was when we got on the bus, we were alive,'' said Long, who was among 30 POWs attending ceremonies at Hickam Air Force Base on Friday. He watched as two flag-draped caskets were unloaded from an Air Force C-130 cargo plane and put aboard a bus that took them to the nearby Central Identification Laboratory Hawaii. Thirty years ago this week, more than 600 freed Americans were ferried aboard U.S. planes from North Vietnam to the Philippines, and then Honolulu, on their way home after years of captivity. Several are in Honolulu to commemorate the anniversary. A joint-service color guard and hundreds of active military personnel joined the former POWs in honoring the remains of Americans found in Laos and remembering other fallen soldiers from the war. As with the men who may be among those recovered, Long's aircraft was shot down over Laos, but he survived the crash and endured more than four years at a prison camp in Hanoi. ``Much has been made of sacrifices that POWs made, but at least we came home alive,'' he said. ``These men made the ultimate sacrifice.'' The POWs were honored later in the afternoon at a brief ceremony attended by Gov. Linda Lingle. ``We owe you a debt we can never repay,'' she said. ``It's almost unbelievable that people could survive so long under those kinds of conditions. It shows the strength of your character, the love for your family and your country.'' The remains were unearthed from two separate crash sites in the Salavan district of Laos and may include as many as six servicemen, including Lt. Jack Rittichier, a native of Ohio, and the only member of the Coast Guard missing from the Vietnam War, military officials said. Until extensive forensic tests are completed, however, there is no positive identification. ``We're certain we're at his site,'' said Lt. Col. Jerry O'Hara, spokesman for the Joint Task Force-Full Accounting, which directed the mission that recovered the remains. ``It's possible, but we don't know if we got him.'' Four U.S. recovery teams have been working in Laos and two in Cambodia since mid-January. Five more teams are set to leave for Vietnam next week. In all, 1,889 Americans are still missing in Vietnam and nearby countries, 8,100 in the two Koreas and 78,000 from World War II in Europe and the Pacific. On the Net: U.S. Army Central Identification Lab Hawaii: http://www.cilhi.army.mil 02/15/03 04:43 EST"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #25 February 15, 2003 I saw a whole thing about this on Nightline, 20/20 or some other news show about him last night...pretty sad. They still think that he is alive and that if we go back into Iraq...it could be bad news for him. The guy that is banging down Congress' door to get him back is his best friend that married this guys wife shortly after he went missing. kinda odd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
