skreamer 1 #26 February 17, 2003 I have a lot of respect for the fact that most of those soldiers who went to Vietnam were conscripts. They didn't choose to make the army their career, they didn't choose to go to war. They did it because they had to and they made the best of it. I only did a year's national service in the army, the bush war in Angola had just ended so we ended up mostly doing unrest control. When your country requires your service you give it (in whatever capacity, whether it be soldier, nurse, teacher etc.) Despite my personal opinions of Bush (which are low), I do still have the utmost respect for the soldiers of the joint task force. And if hopefully the war doesn't take place they would still have done a good job. Just by being there they are putting pressure on Hussein and giving credibility and power to the inspectors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #27 February 17, 2003 Quote Most SUV's and all the long black limos yelled at us as we walked by. Them's some smart vehicles. My SUV can't talk, I don't know about limos. I bet the owners of the vehicles were behind your freedom of expression 100%. I know I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #28 February 17, 2003 QuoteI have a lot of respect for the fact that most of those soldiers who went to Vietnam were conscripts. Just an interesting fact but the percentage of US conscripts in the Vietnam War was actually lower than the percentage of conscripts in World War II. More people (percentage wise) volunteered for the Vietnam War than in WWII. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #29 February 17, 2003 QuoteOne more. Pass a resolution that says "do X, Y and Z by this date or you will be invaded." Make it clear both to Iraq and the rest of the members of the UN what will happen if he doesn't comply. If he does nothing, then at least we gave him every possible chance - and France can't claim they want a little more time. And if, by a miracle, Hussein complies? We just saved the lives of 100,000 people - a few of them american. It's a slim chance, but for that many lives, it's a chance worth taking. I agree with you 100% on this. I think it has already been done but one more time won't hurt. I think I heard where the US and the UK were presenting a resolution shortly that will do just that. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #30 February 17, 2003 You gotta love how these "anti/pro war" links get going.... I'm still on active duty, don't mind the peace rallies. Just please don't think that the US "military" are the ones running this show.... BTW, Let's not knock other countries just because they disapprove of US government views. I love Germany, their culture (ok.. especially the beer!) and the French. Everybody's got their take on how this whole war biz will pan out, but thank god we live in a free country where you can voice your opinion..... Eat, #$#^, skydive, Buck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #31 February 17, 2003 There was approximately the same number of people marching for peace in my hometown, the only difference being it's about four times smaller than San Diego, population-wise. (But we're in Europe and we hate the USA, so it kinda makes sense. j/k) There were people of all ages present, with a surprisingly large number of seniors among them, as well as some protesters from other countries and even a squad of nazi-skinheads. We marched through the old part of our city, most people holding candles, but some were also waving rainbow-colored banners with the word peace or pace (Italians) on them. There were very few signs being carried around. As we made a complete round of the old town, the organizers wanted to steer the protesters back into the square where the march began, and encountered problems for the first time, because a considerable number of them wanted to march past the American embassy. Approximately half of us went past the ten guys in charge who were trying in vain to convince people that we had nothing to say to USA that would matter. When we reached the barricades, which were erected by the police about 100 meters from the embassy, the behavior of the crowd was, a bit surprisingly, very calm. A lot of people left their candles there (others left them in front of our parliament, which was on the way), some songs were sang and only once or twice was shouting anti-americanism taken up. After about an hour, most of the people simply went home (it was freezing). The whole thing lasted approximately four hours, with the performers and speakers being overlooked, partially because of the cold and mostly because people felt, and rightfully so, that the message has already been expressed without words. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raefordite 0 #32 February 17, 2003 The Soldier It's the Soldier, not the reporter, who has given us Freedom of the Press. It's the Soldier, not the poet, who has given us Freedom of speech. It's the Soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the Freedom to Demonstrate. It's the Soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the Right to a Fair Trial. It's the Soldier who salutes the Flag, serves under the Flag, and whose coffin is draped by the Flag, who gives the protester the right to burn the Flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More War"? I wish I had one that says, "You First. No More Twin Towers" Just something to consider at your next peace rally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #33 February 17, 2003 Actually, it was the French who gave you those things. At least the theory. And pray tell, when was the last time the United States had to fight an enemy who wanted to take away your constitutional rights? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raefordite 0 #34 February 18, 2003 Read the poem again my Slovenian friend. The poem reads, "The Soldier" It does not mention or imply a specific nationality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #35 February 18, 2003 >Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More War"? I wish > I had one that says, "You First. No More Twin Towers" Yep. It would be a shame if the war with Iraq causes an increase in terrorism by driving more arabs into organizations like Al Quaeda. A year ago, most arabs didn't believe the US was anti-arab; it's going to be a lot easier for Bin Laden to 'prove' that after we invade. That's one of the reasons I hope we get UN backing. It's easy to hate the US, it's a little harder to hate most of the world. >Just something to consider at your next peace rally. It was considered quite a bit at this one - there were a lot of "stop terrorism - stop war" posters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DivaSkyChick 0 #36 February 18, 2003 That's lovely. I don't think there's anyone here who blames the American kids in our military for our wars. I personally know that many, many soldiers today would much prefer we come to a peaceful solution rather than go to war with Iraq or anyone else. That they are ready to fight on our behalf, regardless of their opinion, is testament to their commitment to our country - remember, in a democracy, we get the government we deserve. Don't like it? VOTE! Protest! Be active in grassroots elections to get little guys with big ideas into office. Corporations and special interests do not HAVE to own our politicians. They just happen to be the ones who ACT on their interests. They may have more money then we do, but they don't have more votes. GET EDUCATED. ACT!!! Deep breath... Okay, that was my two cents. I would like to add that I'm really proud of the fact that we DZ.Commers, with all our different opinions, are coming together to voice our thoughts and learn from each other. That's 3 cents, prolly not worth more. --- www.facebook.com/mandyhamptonfitch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #37 February 18, 2003 QuoteIt's easy to hate the US, it's a little harder to hate most of the world. Yet Al-Qaeda does hate the world...poison found in London, cells broken up in France, Germany, Indonesia, New York, missles being fired at commercial airliners in Saudi Arabia...and that's just counting parts of what we've managed to find thus far. Fighting terrorism without overtly challenging governemtns that pay $25-50K to families of "martyrs" (among other things) is like saying the Maginot Line had a chance.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #38 February 18, 2003 Quote That's 3 cents, prolly not worth more. Nah...I'd pay a nickel, maybe a dime! So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DivaSkyChick 0 #39 February 18, 2003 Quote Quote That's 3 cents, prolly not worth more. Nah...I'd pay a nickel, maybe a dime! Awwwww, thanks darling. You are, as always, a gentleman! --- www.facebook.com/mandyhamptonfitch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #40 February 18, 2003 Quote Read the poem again my Slovenian friend. The poem reads, "The Soldier" It does not mention or imply a specific nationality. Ah, but it was written by an American, was it not? Also, the last verse does imply this is an American soldier- flag with a capital F implies this, the burial ritual described implies this and last but not least, flag-burning in a protest does also imply it's an American flag. I study communications. Analyzing message content has become second-nature to me. Do not fuck with me on this subject! j/k Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #41 February 18, 2003 >Yet Al-Qaeda does hate the world... Agreed there, at least the western world. I hope we expend the resources we need to put them out of business permanently. I don't think the Iraq war will do it; it may even strengthen them. That doesn't mean that we should ignore Iraq while we look for them, but it does mean we're going to have a lot of irons in the fire at the same time. We should also be prepared as a nation to deal with the possible fallout from attacking Iraq. It may come as increased terrorism, a stronger Arab alliance, or a massive pounding of Israel. I hope they don't happen, but if they do, I hope we find ourselves prepared to deal with them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #42 February 18, 2003 QuoteAnd think of the respect such a peaceful endeavor would earn - who can hate a country with such goals? Perhaps a review of how the African nations reacted when Bush told them how much "aids money" they would get. You would think they would be grateful, you would think they would say thanks, nope they whined and demanded more. Perhaps we should change our international aid to be like workfare. If the Us does not see progress in the areas the aid is aimed at the well (our tax $) will run dry. I for one am tired of ungrateful piss ant nations we give millions to. The problem is the gov'ts in the piss ant not the people, or is it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #43 February 18, 2003 Quote Also, the last verse does imply this is an American soldier- flag with a capital F implies this, the burial ritual described implies this and last but not least, flag-burning in a protest does also imply it's an American flag. I study communications. Analyzing message content has become second-nature to me. Do not fuck with me on this subject! j/k Forgive my naiveté, but aren't soldiers in countries outside the USA buried with their flag draped over their coffin as part of the ceremony? Words have many meanings. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #44 February 18, 2003 Oh my this is getting ugly. Southern/northern no fly zones? Brits in Afghanistan? The Brits have 16 Air Assault Brigade, 3 Commando Brigade and 7 Armoured Brigade plus support units en route to a sandy location. They will share the same dangers as the US servicemen for similar reasons and they don't have decent gear. Please forgive me but some members of the US administration are not the best diplomats in the world and they are in front of the world press. Instead of attempting to persuade the world of the case for action on Iraq there is almost an effort to alienate some countries. If they'd done a better job maybe France and Germany wouldn't be so opposed. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #45 February 18, 2003 QuotePlease forgive me but some members of the US administration are not the best diplomats in the world and they are in front of the world press. Instead of attempting to persuade the world of the case for action on Iraq there is almost an effort to alienate some countries. If they'd done a better job maybe France and Germany wouldn't be so opposed. Actually, I think you'll find that the harder edge to American diplomacy is having the desired affect as it pertains to France (whose position surprises no one) and Germany dug its own diplomatic hole during their recent elections. If US diplomacy were so horrible, letters like this would not be published (see attached). Edit to clarify: The "opposition" in Europe (diplomatically speaking) has less to do with US DoS and more to do with Iraq directly.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! EU_Unity_US_Iraq.PDF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #46 February 18, 2003 Quote I hope they don't happen, but if they do, I hope we find ourselves prepared to deal with them. Bill to quote DivaSkyChik QuoteAnything American's put their soul behind, they can do. It's who we are. I think that we shall persevere yet again, there are times when I lose faith in this country, but following 9-11 when the amount of crimes against arabic people here was so low, and the racial/religious tolerance remained high, I found it again I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enrique 0 #47 February 18, 2003 QuoteI hope for our soldiers sake that they don't feel like their own country men are demonstrating against them. Rhino, maybe I'm a wuz and I wouldn't know what to do if I were sent to war. But I feel that a very high percentage of those servicemen that have been/will be deployed are not there willingly (i.e., they joined the military with the [hidden] hope that they would never have to fight an actual war). I don't feel like the peace demonstrators are acting against the servicemen, but rather against the act of war itself. I think peace demonstrators are able to visualize many different ways to accomplish the goal without killing thousands of people or making a huge whole on planet earth. QuoteI hope they don't feel spit on.. I really do.. It would suck to let down ANOTHER generation of soldiers that are fighting for our freedom... In this regard, and in this particular case, I feel that there is a big contradiction between "fighting" and "freedom". Yes, the U.S. has economical freedom. Yes, the U.S. has freedom of speech. But, do you really think the citizens of the U.S. are free when they have to look over their shoulder all the time while they're declaring war on a big part of the world? That is: the things we used to enjoy such as New Year's Eve @ Times Square; the Superbowl, flying on commercial airlines, etc. (or crossing the border, in my case) have become a hassle. What kind of freedom is that? And here's what really gets me: all empires, and I emphasize in ALL have fallen. How hard will the U.S. fall when its time comes? My $0.02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #48 February 18, 2003 >Anything American's put their soul behind, they can do. It's who we are. I think that will be true in the end. I guess my hope is that we don't see a renewed Al Quaeda take out the Sears Tower and react with "Oh, how could this have happened?" We're not going to Iraq for a surgical strike; we're going over there to kill 100,000 men, women and children (if this war is anything like the last one.) That may cause a retaliation from Arab extremists. If we only lose another 3000 Americans in that retaliation, we still 'win' the war, but even 3000 deaths is hard for us to take. I just hope we prepare ourselves for that eventuality now, rather than afterwards. This war won't be as clean as the last one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #49 February 18, 2003 most definately Bill and for everyone else here is a tidbit Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up the tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my family, and my friends. I thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies are the best to buy gas from and which major companies import Middle Eastern oil. The Largest Importers of Middle Eastern Oil: Shell..................................205,742,000 barrels Chevron/Texaco...................144,332,000 barrels Exxon /Mobil.......................130,082,000 barrels Marathon/Speedway............117,740,000 barrels Amoco.................................62,231,000 barrels If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18 BILLION! Here are some large companies that DO NOT import Middle Eastern oil: Citgo....................0 barrels Sunoco.................0 barrels Conoco.................0 barrels Sinclair.................0 barrels BP/Phillips............0 barrels Hess....................0 barrels All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are importing.They report on a monthly basis. Keep this list in your car; share it with friends. Stop paying for terrorism............. I really can't take the credit for this, it must go to my retired father who really, and I mean really likes to keep up with what is going on... but I guess we all know how old dudes and computers can be I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #50 February 18, 2003 SNOPES says this is full of wholes.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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