jfields 0 #26 February 27, 2003 Rhino, Do you have any idea of how those tiles are affixed to the body of the shuttle? Do you know how many different shapes and sizes of tiles there are? You are missing the point. If you carried all the materials and tools you need to repair anything on the shuttle, you are basically saying you can carry an entire spare shuttle as cargo. You can't. You *must* prioritize and accept that there are unlikely contingencies for which you will be unprepared. You jump with a main and reserve. Do you jump with a spare container, in case there is structural failure of the harness? Even if you had it, could you change in time if the failure occurred at break-off altitude? Do you jump with more than one cypres, in case you are unconcious *and* your primary cypres fails? Do you routinely inspect and repack your main and reserve while in flight to make sure nothing happened since you left the jump plane? According to the criteria you are using for NASA, to do anything less than all of these is dumb. Space exploration, like skydiving, is a high-risk activity. You decide what risks you can minimize (not eliminate), evaluate your odds and choose to jump or not. If you want "safe", stay on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #27 February 27, 2003 QuoteYou are missing the point. No I'm not.. And it may be difficult to do but they are NASA for Gods sake.. It has to be possible.. And no I don't have a clue how those tiles are placed on the shuttle.. They repair satellites.. They can repair a shuttle tile. You can get out and make a space walk while in orbit.. You can inspect the space craft, you can't get out of your container in freefall, or out of your airplane at 1,000 feet. I can't even believe these comparisons are being made.. lol Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #28 February 27, 2003 If you step back and look at the big picture you will see that NASA does put a lot of thought into emergency and possible repair situations. They are humans just like the rest of us. They can't imagine and forsee every situation. It is not possible. They learn from mistakes just like the rest of us. I'm not going to play the analogy game with you or try to compare apples to oranges because you wouldn't see the big picture anyway. Point is the shuttle and crew has been lost. NASA is now trying to figure out exactly what happened and why. They are hurting just like everyone else because they are human and have feelings too. If they messed up well then so be it they will learn from this mistake. Granted it will be a costly mistake, but we all make them at one time or another in our lives. Attacking the group is not the way to handle the mistake. Even placing blame will not alter what happened. The only hope is to learn for this and move on. Sorry for the rant. Thumper's father in BAMBI had it right when he said "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #29 February 27, 2003 As far as I'm aware each tile is unique because of the surface. I've heard they're difficult to apply and that was one of the reasons that early shuttle missions would report how many tiles had came off during reentry. I've no idea how they are applied but I'd be interested to know what the curing procedure for the adhesive would be and how different it would be in the atmosphere of space. Would the adhesive even bind properly with the aluminium at the temperatures experienced in space? Would it be possible to work with the adhesive under those conditions? Yes NASA has made some spectacular achievements but many of the satellite repairs you mention were component changes (swapping boxes). They were also rehearsed repeatedly before the mission. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #30 February 27, 2003 Quote Sorry for the rant. Thumper's father in BAMBI had it right when he said "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." LOL... I hear you... I am very pissed at the accident.. I felt it could have been avoided or prevented with some sort of contingency plan in place. Maybe I don't know the logistics or the specifics of what I am suggesting would take. It just seems like a common sense thing to me. When tile placement on certain parts of that craft are paramount to re-entry survival is should be standard practice to inspect and repair it before re-entry. That is a pretty simple thing. A 2 billion dollar space craft, 8 lives,, not even implementing some sort of plan to insure heat shield integrity?? My comment stands for those individuals that didn't plan for this. If I were an investor and this were a business deal I would have just pulled funding or fired everyone involved in making that decision. Or should we say not making that decision. If there were one man that said "no", don't put a space suit in and repair tiles. As a matter of fact don't put ANY means of repairing the heat shield in the shuttle.. I would definitely call THAT person a dumb ass brain wizard.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #31 February 27, 2003 QuoteI've heard they're difficult to apply and that was one of the reasons that early shuttle missions would report how many tiles had came off during reentry. I wonder why they even use tiles? Why isn't just one covering? Make the nose cone and the underside of the belly and wings one piece? Would that be possible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #32 February 27, 2003 That's just the way it is, dude. NASA engineers are smart enough to design a tiny bubble that they feel pretty sure will protect a few delicate human lives from an almost unimaginably unforgiving environment. The astronauts are brave enough and skilled enough to operate that tiny bubble. But nothing is guaranteed, and sometimes the chain of events leading to a disaster starts years before the mission. BMcD308 ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #33 February 27, 2003 Rhino, I honestly believe that if ANYONE at NASA thought for a moment replacement or repair of those tiles could have been made they would have at least attempted it. I really think they would do all that was possible to save the crew, the shuttle and their own livelyhood. I understand your frustration. I'm sure they are frustrated too. The crew are heros but I also feel those who made it possible for the crew to experience the thrill of space flight are heros in their own right and deserve a little credit and respect. Again...ranting. -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #34 February 27, 2003 QuoteI honestly believe that if ANYONE at NASA thought for a moment replacement or repair of those tiles could have been made they would have at least attempted it. God I hope you are right.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #35 February 27, 2003 Believe it or not, people at NASA have actually thought of some of these things, and considered them. I'm no expert on the externals of the shuttle, but I do know that each tile is individual. They're not single continuous surfaces because then the fabrication would be much harder; this is a brittle material that is supposed to be damaged on entry -- that's its whole purpose in life. It's the nature of ablative materials. I didn't work this mission, so I haven't seen or heard anything significant outside of the news. I do know that the airlock normally used to exit was taken up with the module the crew was living in and performing experiments; the arm wasn't installed. I think there might be some goop (technical term alert) that can be used for tile repair. That's a very last-resort type of contingency plan, for exactly the reasons already stated. The real upshot is that the vast majority of folks, who studied a whole lot of film late into the night, and ran numbers, really didn't think a catastrophic scenario was going to result. That was their best technical analysis. Every time the orbiter is up, people talk about contingency plans. Some of the time because of what's going on, sometimes because it's more interesting that listening to the crew sleep. They propose things, talk them over, and what-if everything they can think of. The astronauts are well aware that space flight is not entirely safe. Neither is war, and we're very willing to send young men and young women over to kill and be killed. Wendy W. (that's Ms. fucking brain wizard There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #36 February 27, 2003 They use tiles since they have to very the temperature controls and the shape. Different parts of the orbitor have to be prepared to face different temperates. If you put the 5 inch thick tiles on all parts the shuttle would never leave the ground. The tiles, while being light weight, are still quite heavy in the quanity that each shuttle has. There is a reason that every tile has a unique serial number, its because they are all shaped differtently. While the bottom looks flat its actually a highly shaped surface thats got waves and curves in it. The edge tiles are the ones that are under investigation right now. I've heard there 5000+ different tiles that are used in the edge protection. You would have to carry the exact tile and beable to replace the exact tile with out touching any other tiles. Think of a 5000 piece jigsay puzzle. Now remove one of the center pieces with out touching any of the others, with 3 inch gloves on. Once you removed the piece now try to insert another piece back into its place with out knowing what the total picture looks like. Now do this with some one turning out the lights every 10 minutes. This is not the first space craft to be lost in reentry, Russia lost one in the 60's due to a hole in its heat shield. The angle of entry has to be so close to exact that its like trying to hit a target the thickness of a sheet of paper from 10 feet away with a dart. A few degrees to shallow and the shuttle skips off into space, a few degrees to steep and the shuttle melts. Not even the 5000 degree rated tiles would beable to survive that reentry.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #37 February 27, 2003 You may want to PM hooknswoop to find out what is required training wise for a spacewalk. It's not like someone just saying go out this door, go over here, and do this.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #38 February 27, 2003 QuoteI honestly believe that if ANYONE at NASA thought for a moment replacement or repair of those tiles could have been made they would have at least attempted it. No arguments here... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #39 February 27, 2003 Okay, I'm thinking out loud here, couldn't a repair kit (Wendy's 'goop' for example) be kept on the space station, it would save carrying the stuff there and back every time, and paying for it without using it. I'm assuming such a 'kit was available or even practical of course. I don't know if this mission had anything to do with the ISS, I think I heard it was independent. If they could have made it to the ISS they might have had options to either stay up there till a 'bus' was sent up, or repairs effected in space? Hmm dunno?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #40 February 27, 2003 QuoteRhino, I honestly believe that if ANYONE at NASA thought for a moment replacement or repair of those tiles could have been made they would have at least attempted it. I really think they would do all that was possible to save the crew, the shuttle and their own livelyhood. I understand your frustration. I'm sure they are frustrated too. The crew are heros but I also feel those who made it possible for the crew to experience the thrill of space flight are heros in their own right and deserve a little credit and respect. Again...ranting. Just for the record, a tile repair kit was carried on Columbia for mission STS2, and one of the crew had been trained in its use.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #41 February 27, 2003 If a shuttle mission isn't planned to go to ISS, then it really can't make it there, due to orbit and fuel carried.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #42 February 27, 2003 Don't suppose you know what it consisted of? I'm curious how you have a workable goop at a temperature close to absolute zero. Exothermic reaction of the goop components? David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #43 February 27, 2003 Still thinking out loud Dave..... Could they have used their re-entry fuel to change orbit etc, then 'alighted' at the ISS, and await a rescue mission? The vehicle might be useless, and stranded up there but the crew may have had a chance.. Again I dunno, just chucking ideas into the pot.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #44 February 27, 2003 The Columbia had nothing to due with the ISS this mission. This was only 1 of 2 missions in the next 3 years that had nothing to do with ISS. To dock at the ISS requires an airlock that takes up a chuck of the cargo bay. The Skylab module and the airlock can not fit at the same time. So the Options were to take the skylab module with all the experiments onboard or take the airlock and have no purpose for the launch. Once again its like taking a spare wing onboard an airplane incase you lose one in flight.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #45 February 27, 2003 Interesting stuff..... Sounds like someone did choose not to send along a tile repair kit? Interesting? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #46 February 27, 2003 >>I'm curious how you have a workable goop at a temperature close to absolute zero. << Me, too, but it's not that cold in earth orbit. Not that cold is, of course, relative (I won't do a spacewalk naked, for those of you who would raise the challenge). ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #47 February 27, 2003 There was no way to proform a repair even if they had the kit. With no EVA packs its impossible to move in space. An EVA pack is about 4 feet tall, about 3 feet deep and only carries limited fuel. If they had had one on board and attempted a repair it would take lots of special training to do. STS1 and STS2 only had 2 passengers and were only in space a few days at a time. With only a few days in space and all the planning and tools and training needed to cover every emergency that could be though of at the time it would have been possible to proform a repair in certian non critical areas. The paste has never (as far as I've dug up on Nasa's site) actually been tested in space and reentry, its more of a theory then anything. Putting EVA packs onboard a mission with no planned EVA's takes up room and was not seen as a justifiable item. Tiles have been broken and fallen off ever since the first mission. There were even some missions in the STS80's that had twice the damage as what Columbia was predicted to have on it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #48 February 27, 2003 >Are you sure? I was under the impression that SpaceHab had a door . . It had a door, but you'd have to depressurize the shuttle to use it, and that would require everyone to use their altitude protection suits which are designed for dire emergencies only - they are not tested to the same levels at the EVA suits. That would expose everyone to a tremendous amount of risk. If you just wanted to evacuate the orbiter to, say, the ISS, you could just jettison the main door, but then of course you couldn't re-enter the atmosphere, ever. (assuming the orbiter had enough delta vee to reach the ISS which it didn't.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #49 February 27, 2003 Please don't take this as a criticism of NASA, for which I have the greatest respect. A tile repair kit was developed and carried on STS2. Astronauts were trained to use it. Saying it can't be done is incorrect. Duplicates of each tile wouldn't have to be carried, any more than my car's spare tire is a duplicate of the real tires. The repair just has to be good enough to get back. An underwing space walk is very risky - but so, we have learned, is attempting re-entry with tile damage. Overall, which risk is greater? So we can't inspect the turbine blades of a Twin Otter in flight. However, spacewalks are possible and almost routine (insofar as any space maneuver is routine). There is no reason in principle that spacewalks below the wing couldn't take place. Had such a thing been planned and rehearsed, it would not be so hazardous.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #50 February 27, 2003 Thanks for the clarification Phree, like I said, I don't really know much about this stuff. I have enough challenges engineering things to work down here.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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