billvon 3,111 #1 February 27, 2003 Over the past few weeks they've been trying to decipher the last transmissions from the Columbia orbiter just before it broke up. The data received by mission control is rejected if it's invalid - if parity or framing errors occur, the entire frame of data is rejected, and they don't "see" is. However, they were recording the raw bitstream as it came in, and have been able to pull out some data from even the invalid frames. Just after they lost 'official' contact, all four of the orbiter's rear +yaw RCS jets were firing continuously. This is significant; at those altitudes, the rudder is not yet effective, so the orbiter must rely on the small RCS rockets to provide directional control. They normally fire one at a time in small pulses - each one provides almost 1000 pounds of thrust so it usually doesn't require much to keep the shuttle's attitude correct. The fact that all four were firing flat out indicates there was a tremendous amount of drag on the left side of the orbiter somewhere. It further indicates that if the problem got any worse the orbiter would lose control of its attitude; it had maxed out its yaw authority. Then they lost the signal for 20 seconds. The thought here is that the orbiter began to yaw uncontrollably, basically entering a flat spin (although aerodynamics don't work quite the same at those speeds.) The engines were not expected to survive that kind of exposure to entry heating, and the orbiter probably started to disintegrate at that point. The loss of signal probably occurred when the motion of the orbiter turned the antenna away from the TDRS satellite that was relaying data to the ground. After about 20 seconds they recovered a final 3-4 seconds of data, probably when the orbiter's selected antenna was randomly oriented towards the satellite again. The data was spooky; most of the shuttle was still operational (fuel cells, APU's, environmental systems, control computers) but there were massive failures - there was no hydraulic pressure in any of the systems on the left side of the shuttle, and the OMS and RCS systems were leaking fuel rapidly. At that point the orbiter was uncontrollable; it had already started to break up according to ground photos. It's a testament to its engineering that it survived even as long as it did to get one final report to the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #2 February 27, 2003 God Speed to the crew. That had to have been hard realizing what was happening but not being about to do anything about it. Think about how long 20-30 seconds was on your first skydive. -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoobieCootie 0 #3 February 27, 2003 This just in My question though is why or was it possible to miss noticing the damage once the shuttle was in space? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #4 February 27, 2003 >My question though is why or was it possible to miss noticing the >damage once the shuttle was in space? You're on a desert road. You hear a thunk under your car, one of dozens you've heard since you got on the road. There's no one for miles and you can't get out of the car. Is your car damaged? How would you be able to tell? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeMcLean 0 #5 February 27, 2003 Quote It's a testament to its engineering that it survived even as long as it did to get one final report to the ground. All that for the final words of "Can You Hear Me Now?"It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoobieCootie 0 #6 February 27, 2003 1) With the number of sensors on board 2) With the amount of hi-tech communication devices 3) With video of the launch (obviously it was reviewed while the mission was happening) Why wasn't the crew informed? Couldn't the crew have noticed assuming they did a space walk? Could the crew preform some repair had they been informed? Just curious... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #7 February 27, 2003 Quote3) With video of the launch (obviously it was reviewed while the mission was happening) nope it was reviewed the day after frame by frame. --if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoobieCootie 0 #8 February 27, 2003 From the MSN article, it was one day before the scheduled return that NASA engineers got concerned. That said, until the shuttle lands and crew disembarks, I think "while the mission is happening" holds trueNot making fun or anything about the disaster, or even starting a debate here. Just inquiring Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #9 February 27, 2003 I don't think it would have helped much to tell the crew about it. There probably wasn't much they could have done. It's like you find out in freefall that your legstraps have been cut. It may tell you what will happen soon, but you can't do much about it. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #10 February 27, 2003 >1) With the number of sensors on board Sensors detected nothing until entry interface, when it was too late to do anything >2) With the amount of hi-tech communication devices Communications was never a problem >Couldn't the crew have noticed assuming they did a space walk? There were no EVA suits, EMU's, or robotic arms. There wasn't even a door they could use to get out of the shuttle. >Could the crew preform some repair had they been informed? With what they had available? (duct tape and a few tools) Doubtful, even if they had the ability to get to the damaged area, which they didn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #11 February 27, 2003 Quote1) With the number of sensors on board 2) With the amount of hi-tech communication devices 3) With video of the launch (obviously it was reviewed while the mission was happening) Why wasn't the crew informed? Couldn't the crew have noticed assuming they did a space walk? Could the crew preform some repair had they been informed? If you go to www.foxnews.com, they have a link to the emails that were exchanged between the ground personnel to discuss the damage. There was an advocate to having a spacewalk, even if repairs couldn't be done.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #12 February 27, 2003 I helped to hand-decom some of that data. I don't have a big-picture view of it outside of what's on the news; I was just providing a pair of eyes and a keyboard with fingers. I didn't interpret anything; just took numbers out of the data stream. The data was was very hard to look at. Individual pieces were OK, then not. Then it ended, frame by frame. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #13 February 27, 2003 I have the upmost respect for you wendy you are doing a most admirial thing! keep up the good work! --if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #14 February 27, 2003 Quote There were no EVA suits, EMU's, or robotic arms. There wasn't even a door they could use to get out of the shuttle. . Are you sure? I was under the impression that SpaceHab had a door, and that there was one EVA suit on board. Not that an EVA would have helped a whole lot...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #15 February 27, 2003 QuoteQuote There were no EVA suits, EMU's, or robotic arms. There wasn't even a door they could use to get out of the shuttle. . Are you sure? I was under the impression that SpaceHab had a door, and that there was one EVA suit on board. Not that an EVA would have helped a whole lot... Performing an unplanned EVA is a very scary thing. And the heat tiles are so delicate that an astronaut could actually do more damage than good while fumbling around out there. It would require a robotic arm to hold the astronaut in place to do the job and as Bill stated before, it was not installed for this flight. Chris Schindler edited for spelling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #16 February 27, 2003 I believe there was one suit, but no EVA pack. There was talk of doing a teathered space walk, but it was deemed too risky do to the fact that the person would be climbing under the wing (where they have never been trained to go), in the shadow of the orbiter where the tether could snap and there would be no way to bring them back in or rescue them. The person woul just tumble off in space untill they reentered the atmosphere or died due to lack of air (would happen first).Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 February 27, 2003 I think the fact that Nasa sent a crew up with NO WAY to inspect their craft and NO WAY to repair tiles was a VERY FOOLISH thing to do.. What a bunch of fucking brain wizards.. That was just plain dump.. Where is their sign?? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #18 February 27, 2003 Rhino, that was pretty much a personal attack on a large group of really carring and smart people. You know, once airborne, I have no way of inspecting all of my airliner either. What does that make the engineers at Bombardier? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #19 February 27, 2003 Rhino, It is like going on a trip in the most remote wilderness you can imagine. The shuttle seems big, but even so, it is impossible to carry spare parts and tools for everything. When you are driving in your car, do you carry an engine hoist, spare engine, extra transmissions, extra antifreeze, extra oil, spare windshield, etc.? The answer is no, because to do so would exceed the carrying capacity of your vehicle. You pick and choose what you forsee you'll need. Sadly, you don't always choose correctly. Even if you do, you don't necessarily have the knowledge or skill to do a repair anyway. It is hardly fair or reasonable to criticize NASA's preparedness without a sound understanding of the decisions that go into the shuttle's payload selection. I'm not saying I know what was onboard, just that I understand they can't have *everything* onboard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #20 February 27, 2003 Quote Rhino, that was pretty much a personal attack on a large group of really carring and smart people. You know, once airborne, I have no way of inspecting all of my airliner either. What does that make the engineers at Bombardier? No Chris.. No comparison.. None at all... Your airplane doesn't have to experience re-entry at mach 12.. What I am talking about is piss poor planning on NASA'a part. Call it what you will it was bad mission planning. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #21 February 27, 2003 Those heat tiles are EXTREMELY light.. And one or two space suits? How hard would that be? Train a crew member in tile repair.. Having those tiles in proper condition or at least in minimal condition for re-entry is paramount. An inspection of the shuttle before re-entry should be routine and standard procedure. If they learn from this it will be.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #22 February 27, 2003 QuoteWhat a bunch of fucking brain wizards.. Yes, it was a personal attack. I'm done here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #23 February 27, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What a bunch of fucking brain wizards.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it was a personal attack. I'm done here. I am sure many people feel the same way.. They may be caring but someone screwed up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #24 February 27, 2003 Can you hop out and inspect the turbines on the plane at 1000 feet? Thats the reality of space flight. Can you replace a turbine blade once you leave the ground?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #25 February 27, 2003 Once again.. No comparison.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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