rgoper 0 #1 February 27, 2003 This Is Scary i've seen this before, it doesn't look good. this proves my theory that the U.S.A. needs to be energy independant. it won't be long before DZO's will have to raise the price of jump tickets to offset this extra costs. commercial airlines are adding a $10.00 fuel charge to many airline tickets, it's scary.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasterfaller 0 #2 February 28, 2003 Fuck foreign oil ! Stop buying the oil when the greedy bastards are gouging us . If we stop buying it for a while the price will go down . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #3 February 28, 2003 >Fuck foreign oil ! Stop buying the oil when the greedy bastards are >gouging us . If we stop buying it for a while the price will go down . Very true; if we stopped buying foreign oil, the world oil market would collapse and oil would become dirt cheap. The Middle East's economy would tank quickly, which is both a good and a bad thing for us. Of course, gas here would hit $10 a gallon pretty quickly, so we should be ready to go with alternates like ethanol, biodiesel and methane. We'd also have to reopen coastal drilling in Florida and Alaska of course. It would be very painful for a year or so, but after that time we'd be independent of foreign oil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #4 February 28, 2003 QuoteVery true; if we stopped buying foreign oil, the world oil market would collapse and oil would become dirt cheap. The Middle East's economy would tank quickly, which is both a good and a bad thing for us. .... It would be very painful for a year or so, but after that time we'd be independent of foreign oil. That is a sure fire way to start a war too.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasterfaller 0 #5 February 28, 2003 I would love ethanol and would use it all the time if I could find a reliable source for it . Sadly , the oil companies will NEVER let this happen . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #6 February 28, 2003 >That is a sure fire way to start a war too. How do you figure? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #7 February 28, 2003 QuoteHow do you figure? By isolating the United States from a global economic component such as oil, the ripple affect would destroy the economies of the Middle East, South America and Asia (following your example). Follow me on this: If there was a sudden, dramatic drop in the price of oil, I would wager that the following countries would plunge into almost immediate violent revolution: Venezuela, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iran (that's just for starters). The Russian economy, already fragile, and heavily dependent on growing oil exports would completely implode. This would cause mass famine due to poor agricultural infrastructure and Moscow would be such an inferno, they'd see the smoke in Italy. One could argue that the oil producers would simply cut production to stabilize prices to meet the reduced demand right? Wrong. The supply would have to be cut to a level raising prices, despite reduced revenues. OPEC would dissolve and production would increase independently in an effort to generate more revenue. Venezuela would collapse again. The narrow power base in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran would crumble and Russia would still starve completely. Regardless of scenario, the commodity price of oil goes down suddenly, dramatically. Thus affecting revenues in France and Germany - the two largest economies in Europe to the point of 100s of BILLIONS almost immediately (less than 5 years). On top of that, oil production eventually gets interrupted due to reduced revenues and refining and that affects the industrial production of the remaining countries that are left to consume. Production at the major industrial centers slows and even the stuff that the US wants to import becomes more difficult, prices increase. Basically speaking, a collapse of the oil market as you describe would cause an extreme flux that market or the world could not bear. Sudden economic destruction coupled with political initiative (always present), anywhere, causes major conflicts. Russia, Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Iran, Iran/Iraq War, soon-to-be-Korea, even the Colonial US all fell victim to such circumstances which were a part of or catalyst to major conflicts.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #8 February 28, 2003 Bill you are a fucking genious, you should be a general!!!!jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #9 February 28, 2003 Rich, every cloud has a silver lining. Historically high oil prices means more work for the likes of you and me. More work means a greater demand for our skills, leading to an immediate rate increase,and unlimited overtime. War is a hell of a price to pay though....You do know there is a world shortage of experienced oil people right now..... -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #10 February 28, 2003 >I would love ethanol and would use it all the time if I could find a reliable source for it . Arizona has no E85 filling stations I could find; they're mainly in the corn states (Kansas etc) since that's where the corn is grown. They do have a few biodiesel stations though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #11 February 28, 2003 QuoteWe'd also have to reopen coastal drilling in Florida and Alaska of course. It would be very painful for a year or so, but after that time we'd be independent of foreign oil. I agree it's past time for us to tap the resources of our own great nation. It's time to drill!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #12 February 28, 2003 >I agree it's past time for us to tap the resources of our own great >nation. It's time to drill!!! Like I said, I'd be all for that if we could eliminate our imports at the same time. Pumping our own country dry as fast as possible while continuing to _increase_ our usage of foreign oil (which is what will happen if we open ANWR without any additional fuel economy or import rules) would be very foolish - it would hasten the day when we rely 100% on foreign oil, and that's a very bad position to be in. We have a limited supply of oil. If we're going to continue to use both as fast as we can, I'd be in favor of drastically _slowing_ US oil production, and pumping the rest of the world dry first. Then our economy does not come to a screeching halt when the rest of the world runs out of oil. Think about where you want to be when the final shortage hits - sitting on decent size reserves here in the US, or without a drop of oil left in our wells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #13 February 28, 2003 Quote>I would love ethanol and would use it all the time if I could find a reliable source for it . Arizona has no E85 filling stations I could find; they're mainly in the corn states (Kansas etc) since that's where the corn is grown. They do have a few biodiesel stations though. Is a 10% ethanol blend available in AZ? This is the first step as all cars made be the big 3 can burn it right now, and if everyone were using it we would see and immediate drop in oil usage. E85 seems to be a little futher down the road but hopefully will come on fast. GM is stepping up it's promotion but as Bill said it'll be in the midwest first. Where most of the US ethanol is produced and easiest to promote. See GM info here http://www.bbiethanol.com/news/view.cgi?article=712 Biodiesel is a couple cents too high in price right now to move into the over the road truck market. Which is where it needs to be to make a real difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #14 February 28, 2003 >Is a 10% ethanol blend available in AZ? Most states use a 3-10% oxygenate additive to gasoline in the winter; in many places this is ethanol. So it's already done to some extent. >Biodiesel is a couple cents too high in price right now to move into > the over the road truck market. Which is where it needs to be to > make a real difference. Another angle there is to modify the fuel system to handle vegetable oil directly. It's not too hard; mainly you need to heat the oil to 70C, so you need heat exchangers, fuel tank heaters etc. Once you do that you can use vegetable oil directly. It's under $1 a gallon in bulk. And of course it's essentially free from restaraunts and fast food places. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #15 February 28, 2003 Bill, Are any other oxygenates in use other then mtbe & ethanol? mtbe is on it's way out in most places because of it's groundwater contamination issues. Ethanol 10% blends are available widely here in the midwest and will be taking over the mtbe market in Cali. Im just curious about other states like AZ. I would think that with pollution problems around phoenix they would have and oxygenate requirement- maybe it's mtbe right now? As for the Vegetable Oils, is it endorsed by the manufactures yet? Until that happens I doubt you'll see many owners putting used vegi oil in equipment that costs over $100,000. and voiding the warranty. But it doesn't sound like it would be too difficult to heat the fuel as you said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #16 February 28, 2003 >Are any other oxygenates in use other then mtbe & ethanol? There are plenty of other oxygenates (methanol for example) but I think the only two under serious consideration are ethanol and mtbe. >As for the Vegetable Oils, is it endorsed by the manufactures yet? Nope, and I doubt it ever will be. Why would they endorse it? Why expend the effort? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #17 February 28, 2003 Quote>As for the Vegetable Oils, is it endorsed by the manufactures yet? Nope, and I doubt it ever will be. Why would they endorse it? Why expend the effort? If burning vegi oils is a cheaper way of cleaning up and meeting emissions requirements than current methods with diesel then it would let the manufactures produce cheaper trucks. A good thing for them. If it lets owners use a fuel that is cheaper than current diesel a demand will exist. As long as the original purchase price is inline with other types of fuel burners. Many over the road trucks saw in increase in price of between $6000-10,000. for the 2003 model year. Most of this increase went toward equipment to meet new emissions requirements. If that truck could of met those requirements by burning vegi oil cheaper than that new hardware the manufactures would expend the effort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beavdog 0 #18 February 28, 2003 Im not minding the oil markups due my parents recent investment in the petrol industry.... Here's to the Breezes that blows through the Trezzez..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
