An analogy that makes me mad

[SkyDekker 1,465]

OK, I am a little confused: What tax dollars are you talking about???????

It is my understanding that a local business man set up a fund and initiated fundraising efforts. Furthermore, the doctor (who by the way publically has assumed responsibility and has stated that he was at fault) donated his time for the transplant. I am not sure where the tax dollars come into play?

I do not see what the issue is with her citizenship status. I have a lot of respect for a woman who against all odds fought for her child, begged for her and tried to save her.

No fault, no pay renumeration for lawyers is illegal in most parts of the world which prevents a lot of lawsuits from even being started. So, use your democratic powers to change the law!

If this was anyone else the majority of you would agree that the person who screws up needs to pay for his/her mistake. So, are you telling me that because she was illegal this does not apply? Or even if tax dollars were spent, would it still not apply.

Btw, if the US government would not spend as much on their military might, maybe they would be able to help Lauren and thousands others like her. Does this mean that Americans prefer to bomb other countries over saving their own children?

[harryskydives 0]

OK, I am a little confused: What tax dollars are you talking about???????

About half of Duke u buget comes from government and patient payments. A very lage part also comes from investments. Hence no pay no investment. I am sure i would try the samething if it was my child. But my personal insurance costs have gone up by 50% in the last few years. Hence fewer jumps. I am sure we could all put all of our incomes into other peoples health care and still not fix everyone.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[Enrique 0]

Here's a different perspective for you:

You have people that sue because they got fat from eating too many chesseburgers; as you have people suing because they burned their tongue WITH COFFEE; as you also have people suing because they slipped at the supermarket (all true cases), and here you are, debating on the morality of a lawsuit based on the loss of a life.

A little ironic, don't you think?

[MikeMcLean 0]

Quote

Now, since the rumor is that the person was here illegally, does that make it ok for the doctors/hospital to fuck up? NO!

Agreed, her status doesn't make it ok for the doctors to fuck up. The point, however, is that because of her status she shouldn't have been in a position to have the fuck up happen. Taxpayer dollars paid for the transplant(s) and this is the real abortion.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[MikeMcLean 0]

Quote

***If you call her decision not to donate her daughters' organs "human", the mistake of the doctors is also "human". Both "human" decisions/mistakes can cost a life. So where does that leave the foreign mother? In the cesspit with the doctors, to me.

Ok try this one - let's say I am in the hospital on life support and don't have a living will - my parents pull the plug - the doctors ask my parents to donate my organs and they say no......what is the difference......
You made an in-human decision to not have a donor card and to not have a legal, notarized living will that guaranteed donation of your organs and you cost a life. As far as difference, there is none, it is disgusting in each of these cases and puts you in the same cesspool.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[cgross 1]

Well, first of all look up irony... this is in no way ironic.

secondly, I have been here for 5 months talking about frivolous lawsuits. So, to me this is just another. The USA gave this girl Chance at life... that is it. a chance. She would have died without it. But to turn around and sue is a slap in the face to the help we reached out to give.

Chris

[CornishChris 5]

Both my wifes parents are doctors. Her sister is a Doctor. Her grandparents, unlces aunts and whole family are Doctors. Has anyone stopped to think about how they fall into this equation? I think it is terrible that the society we live in has become so litigious - especially towards those who try to help us.

I do not think the woman has a right to sue for the loss of her child although I think that it is a shame that the child died. I agree with the comment about the litigation over cheeseburgers & coffee incidents. Whilst there is an argument to be had over which child got the operation there is also one to be had over the sueing.

There was a previous comment that all sueing is for revenge. Crap. In the US, and increasingly in the UK, litigation is about greed - something for nothing - which is wrong. If people sue it should be because they have been damaged by the actions of another in some definable way - hit by a driver, defamation etc. Not because it is a quick buck. Back to my original comments about Doctors in the family - how many of you guys are in a job where your day to day actions save/terminate people lives? Very few I would imagine. the pressure that these guys are under is phenomenal. 2nd Question: When was the last time you did something wrong at work: forgot to file a report; didn't call someone back; missed a delivery? How would lyou feel if that meant someone could sue you for your entire livelihood? In the UK the number of student Docs is falling as people do niot want to put themselves in to these positions where there every move is scrutinised for an opportunity to sue - what happens when we get to the situation where both of these kids die because there is no one to do the operation and no one prepared to put there necks on the line...

Just a few thoughts to add to the mix - please try not to sue me for them...

CJP

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[MikeMcLean 0]

Quote

A death of a child is a vulnerable, angry time. A parent wants someone to be responsible, they want their child back, they wish they could trade places... lots of room for manipulation there.

Funny, I've buried three kids and never once thought of blame, manipulation, or bullshit lawsuits.

It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention

[jraf 0]

I think the question of nationality or citizenship is irrelevant here. If you put one naked Amrican next to one naked Russian, next to one naked Cinese next to one naked Kenyan they all look the same. What more I hate to brake the news, but they all are human.

The issue of the lawsuit is a different question. However as Enrique mentioned this is NOT about spilling coffee, this is about loss of a human life due to gross negligence. If they are not punished they will do it again...to a citizen of whatever country

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[lawrocket 3]

I thought I'd give a little bit of an opinion on this. A hot thread like this? I cannot resist the peer pressure.

There are separate issues here. First is legal. Second is medical. Third is moral. Fourth is political. They cannot be reconciled into a model. Here's my take.

First: Someone messed up. There was a duty not to put the wrong organs in. That duty was breached. It caused the death. Now, we can argue all we want about whether she would have lived or how long she would have lived without it, and eliminate damages that way. One way or another, the proximate cause of death appeared to be multi-system organ failure brought about by, in essence, a systemic allergic reaction caused by the wrong organ. Professionally, I'd love to try to defend this case for the challenge of it (sorry, I'm a shyster, and that's just what i do!)

Second: The odds of a donor match are so small, those lungs would not have been able to go to anyone else. We could search far an wide for a donor match, but she was the one who got the match. . The choice is not which person will live and which will die. That assumes that there are two people matching, which is extremely improbable.

The choice is whether the person who matches will live or die. I doubt she have been a match with Einstein, so that point is not valid. If she didn't get the lungs, nobody would. The policy argument here is whether the money is well spent on an illegal alien. This is a different issue altogether and not relevant in terms of whether the person can even get the organs.

Let's keep the issue of funding and policy separate from the medicine of the issue. Then, keep those separate from the law of the issue. Leave it to the legislatures to ban transplants on illegal aliens, if that's the choice.

Third: This is the part that worries me and nobody has brought this up. Was that first set of lungs destined for someone else? If so, maybe we can chalk up two deaths on that one. Did she get organs meant for someone else? A taxpaying American citizen, perhaps? Maybe two people are dead now.

Main point? It's a tough issue. I have an idea of the legal side of it, and some of the medical.

Policy-wise? The issue is really whether we should ban unfunded organ transplants for illegal aliens.

---

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[FallingILweenie 0]

The way I see it, it isn't so complicated.

It pisses me off because i am a LEGAL alien-resident of this country. I've had to do the steps necessary for residency when I first got here, and I will at some point go through the legal process to become a citizen.
As such, it really sucks that someone can come into the country illegally and cut in line for this procedure.

Now, it sucks the girl died...if they are going to try and save her, obviously it would have been nice if she had lived.

But the way I see it is that it's a cause and effect thing: had the family not come illegally, the botched procedure would not have happened. The girl probably would have died without the medical care, I realize, but I don't know if the family has a right to complain. To me it is sort of like if I went and stole one of the Ford Explorers with the exploding tires and while joyriding the tires blew up and i crashed and then sued Ford and Firestone for damages.....

I can't blame the family for doing what they did in trying to save their little girl, I'm sure most people would do the same for a loved one. I just don't think they have that much right to turn around and sue the pants off everyone in sight.

Maybe i sound a bit harsh, but i work in court where i see illegal mexicans (not to generalize, but it's true in 99% of the cases) who get arrested for not having a license or insurance....and i'm thinking "if this guy gets into an accident, and it's their fault, the other person is pretty much screwed"....so i am a bit jaded.

[flyingferret 0]

Push:

Quote

Why can't she ask for justice? Because she isn't American? And if she was, would that make it better?

I think that fact that she was ILLEGAL...I-L-L-E-G-A-L. (there is very little room for interpretation in that word) makes it a bitter harder to ask for justice. Because by the very premise of being in the Los Estados Unidos she was conciously and willfully skirting justice. I doubt the doctor conciously or willful skirted justice.

CornishChris:
Very well said! I have immense respect for the medical community. I cannot imagine working in a job, where every task I did has the risk of injuring/killing someone. Talk about stress. Why? because i readily admit, my job does not require that type of concentration, I mess up pretty frequently. I think we are f-ing ourselves collectively. We have gone around suing everywhere there might be a possible cause, without asking ourselves if we would risk doing it better. Litigation is the enemy of a capitalistic market. Well supply and demand are kicking in.....people are avoiding the professions with the higher risk and lower returns. Someday we will look around and whine about where everyone went. Well, you stupid collective conciousness, there is not 'they' who makes decisions! There is a group of individuals making decisions and not taking responsibility for them.

jraf

Quote

I think the question of nationality or citizenship is irrelevant here. If you put one naked Amrican next to one naked Russian, next to one naked Cinese next to one naked Kenyan they all look the same. What more I hate to brake the news, but they all are human.

That is flawed logic and absolutely absurd. The same analogy would apply to a saint, a rapist, a murder, a nun, and a pedophile.


As others have said, this situation as multiple issues.
1. Who was chosen
2. Why was the error made
3. Sould the mother sue as a result

I have the most issue with 1, although I am not very informed with how the process of decision works, so if anyone has links, feel free to post. Number 2 I have not heard any evidence on. Number 3 depends largely on 2 in my opinion, however I am leaning heavily towards no, simply because I don't believe you should make a joke about a Frenchman who just gave you his frog. (Sorry pun intended, but you get the point). If someone showed compassion and attempted to help, and you accepted their help, knowing they are fallible, should you sue them for a mistake? Have you ever seen those sitcoms episodes, like Frasier, where a character has an operation and all the family members quiz the doctor based on reading things on an internet site? Laughable isn't it? How can you look at a doctor before hand and judge his ability? Could the mother or anyone else have really done any better or picked anyone that would have been predicted to do better?

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I think that fact that she was ILLEGAL...I-L-L-E-G-A-L. (there is very little room for interpretation in that word) makes it a bitter harder to ask for justice. Because by the very premise of being in the Los Estados Unidos she was conciously and willfully skirting justice.

I wonder what public reaction would have been if the following story would have been in the newspaper:

INS deports poor mexican mother and child, sure to die without medical assistance.

BTW, for those who read USA Today this morning. There was a small story on this case, clearly indicating that the mother has not decided whether or not to sue.......

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I wonder what public reaction would have been if the following story would have been in the newspaper:

INS deports poor mexican mother and child, sure to die without medical assistance.

Why would it be in the paper? That sort of thing happens every day. I'm tired of my tax dollars going to fund someone, who is illegally in my country, for their education, medical, etc. Quite frankly it pisses me off. If someone wants into the country, they can go and apply like so many others have done and I will gladly welcome them with open arms.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I'm tired of my tax dollars going to fund someone, who is illegally in my country, for their education, medical, etc. Quite frankly it pisses me off.

Yeah, but who is going to clean your bathrooms in the south?

[PhillyKev 0]

So if your child were sick and dying you wouldn't illegally enter another country for medical assistance? I sure as hell would.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

So if your child were sick and dying you wouldn't illegally enter another country for medical assistance? I sure as hell would.

So, you think that if I snuck into Germany (random country, nothing specific) as an American to get medical help for my kid, they would help me? Doubtful.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhillyKev 0]

Maybe not, because you can get help here. But if you snuck into Germany as a Mexican to get help I bet they would.

[Lindsey 0]

Quote

Second: The odds of a donor match are so small, those lungs would not have been able to go to anyone else. We could search far an wide for a donor match, but she was the one who got the match. . The choice is not which person will live and which will die. That assumes that there are two people matching, which is extremely improbable

Sorry lawrocket....that's just not the case. If it were a bone marrow transplant, then yeah....but for heart/lung transplant, you don't have to worry about such an exact match. I do think it would be pretty shitty to come here illegally and be given organs twice, but then turn around and be unwilling to donate back. BUT....what's already been mentioned....the life support she was on (probably ECMO) can do an incredible amount of damage to organs. If her corneas were all that was left to give, it's real taboo for a lot of folks to give corneas. I've dealt with lots of families who were willing to donate all organs except eyes....

I do hope they decide not to sue, but that's because I think it's incredibly bad karma. I think if the family does sue, it will stiffen a lot of opinions about people being in our country illegally. I'm sure the skydivers aren't the only ones batting this one around.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[flyingferret 0]

Like David said, it happens all the time. SAD FACT here, brace yourself: People die everyday all around the world from be poor muther-f#ckers. We only compassionately pine about the ones that register face recognition with us. We cannot save every impoverished child (unless there is a huge rework in social thinking, and in my opinion a relegious resurrgence, but that is another thread).

As for the the USA today thing, just like freefliers and cameras: no link, it did not happen. My very first post here asked for links. If you have some evidence, share it, information wants to be free. If your information is correct, I hope she decides not to sue (once again I preface that by saying I do not know who was at fault in the mismatch)

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[Enrique 0]

Alright!

I used to volunteer for a rescue team in Mexico. Specifically, in Tijuana and Rosarito (a very common destination for tourists and "illegal" immigrants). Do you mean to tell me that, if I was called to the scene of an accident and the injured party was an illegal immigrant, or a U.S. citizen for that case, I should have gotten back up on my ambulance and head back to my station because he/she was NOT Mexican and, therefore, didn't receive medical treatment?
Bear in mind that the same person I denied the med attention could have PUT ME IN PRISION just because of my refusal to assist.
Also, bear in mind that the rescue team was privately owned, privately funded, DID NOT CHARGE ONE PENNY FOR THE SERVICES WE PROVIDED nor for the materials that were used.
Man, it's a life we're talking about.
I respect your position, but I just don't think that you would NOT be having the same reaction if it were you or one of your family members in that situation. Do you ever travel outside the U.S.? If you do, then it's a possibility it might happen to you.

And as far as what you say about "reaching out to give help", I agree with you. However, I do think that if you are going to do anyone a favor you must do it correctly or don't do it at all. If you fail, yes, you tried your best, but that doesn't mean that you are not responsible for the outcome. If it would have been successful, they have glory; it wasn't, so there is a consequence they must deal with. Frivolous lawsuits are all about that NOBODY TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS ANYMORE, it's always someone elses fault..... it's sad.

[flyingferret 0]

I have relatives in Germany, and I REALLY doubt it. Germany is absolutely overrun with immigrants since the reunification, but to mention trying to bring East Germany out of the stone age. Based on what my relatives say, most people are pretty beligerant about social aid already.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[flyingferret 0]

Wouldn't that make you a private volunteer in a foreign country? How would they be an illegal alien if you were in Mexico?

Further more, this medically speaking a totally different situation then emergency medical attention at the scene of an accident. Time permitted the luxury of evaluation.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Wouldn't that make you a private volunteer in a foreign country? How would they be an illegal alien if you were in Mexico?


I'm Mexican, live and work in Mexico.

• Quote

[Michele 1]

My own personal story relates just a little bit...

Most of you know there was a tumor found in my eye last year, which required significant surgery. What some of you don't know is that, as an independent contractor, I have no medical insurance. Because of the tumor, when I shopped around, I couldn't get any medical insurance which would cover the surgery ("pre-existing condition"). I went to the State, and was turned down. I went to the Feds, and was turned down. I went to the charity hospitals, and was turned down. Three of the reasons given was because of my "ethnicity" (I'm not a minority), my no-children status (if I had a child or two, I'd've been assisted), and I was not old enough for some benefits. Another reason given was because the charity hospital I contacted said that they had their "quota" for the quarter. ANother charity hospital I contacted told me sure, but it would have to wait until there was time, and did I know if it was cancer or not (which is one of the reasons the pressure was on to get the surgery done quickly - we didn't know, and couldn't tell without the surgery.)

I had to have the surgery...and so I paid for it out of my pocket. I talked to the Dr. and the clinic (yes, it was a clinic and not a hospital), and because of my situation, I paid a discounted price. But I still paid a great deal.

Because I was out of work for soooo long, my yearly income was significantly reduced. At one point, I contacted the financial aid folk for assistence, and the same issues applied...ethnicity, no children, and age.

Just a few thoughts to consider when thinking about the larger picture...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~