mixedup 0 #1 June 22, 2011 I don't quite follow why the guidelines include disconnecting the RSL prior to main cutaway in a side-by-side? Can someone fill me in on this? That is, if the reserve is already out does it really matter in this case pulling the reserve handle? http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section5/tabid/168/Default.aspx Quote4. Stable side-by-side (choose one procedure): Side-by-side procedure 1: If both canopies are flying without interference or possibility of entanglement and altitude permits: (1) Disconnect the RSL. (2) Cut away the main and steer the reserve to a normal landing. Parachutist Game IOS Android YouT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #2 June 22, 2011 It's because there is a slight chance that the RSL lanyard dangling from the main risers might foul the reserve lines or risers during a main cutaway.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #3 June 22, 2011 QuoteIt's because there is a slight chance that the RSL lanyard dangling from the main risers might foul the reserve lines or risers during a main cutaway. IIRC...some rigs have a little extra plumbing that could choke off the reserve if the RSL isn't disconnected. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #4 June 22, 2011 And on a Racer, the RSL could strangle and deflate the reserve as the main departs. That resulted in a fatality a while back if memory serves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #5 June 22, 2011 Makes me feel pretty simple minded. two answers that kick the living hell out of mine.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #6 June 22, 2011 Quote Makes me feel pretty simple minded. two answers that kick the living hell out of mine. you got two ears and one mouth; use them proportionally! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #7 June 22, 2011 But it is reasonable for "the rules" to cover "most typical equipment". At some point, there is a judgment made that some equipment will be considered atypical and the user of the equipment should know the special procedures for that equipment. I won't get outraged if someone says, "arch after cutting away", because that is the wrong thing to do if you are jumping a bellymount, which I occasionally do.... So the "RSL lanyard catching risers or lines" is still the normal answer. More info can then be added for a more detailed answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #8 June 22, 2011 QuoteAnd on a Racer, the RSL could strangle and deflate the reserve as the main departs. That resulted in a fatality a while back if memory serves. Your memory does serve you correctly. It was a long-time Racer owner who bought one with an RSL for the first time when they became popular. He didn't bother reading the manual which clearly warned that the double-sided RSL MUST be disconnected on at least one side before chopping a main during a 2-out situation. His ended up with 2 out and cutaway the main while both sides were attached to the risers. The main slid straight up the reserve lines, choking it and causing it to collapse.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mixedup 0 #9 June 22, 2011 I'm pretty sure the student rigs I'm using in AFF don't have an RSL release come to think of it. So no doubt these are situations I shouldnt worry about for the moment? I see the risks were "slight"?Parachutist Game IOS Android YouT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #10 June 23, 2011 QuoteI'm pretty sure the student rigs I'm using in AFF don't have an RSL release come to think of it. So no doubt these are situations I shouldnt worry about for the moment? I see the risks were "slight"? ....................................................................... Not all instructors mention RSLs during ground school ... to avoid information overload. Students often get introduced to RSLs later in the program, like level 2 or level 3, when they start to do their own gear checks. Also, not all school rigs have easily releasable RSLs. Since the primary function of an RSL release is to allow you to swim away from your main canopy - after a water landing - many in-land schools order student rigs without Swedish snap shackles. Instead they use Maillon Rapides which are only ever disconnected by the school rigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #11 June 23, 2011 >I'm pretty sure the student rigs I'm using in AFF don't have an RSL release come to think of it. They may not. Some schools use a quick link (not removable during a mal) to prevent accidental release. On the minus side this does not allow you to release the RSL during a two out before cutting away; on the plus side the quick link is a lot "cleaner" than a standard RSL shackle and thus poses less of a snag hazard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #12 June 23, 2011 Screw dying in a collision, swooping or even forgetting your rig... Nothing comes close to having a dodgy manufactured gear and these "stealth" problems that the average joe doesn't know about, which can kill so freakin easily.. Gear fear is the worst shit How are we supposed to know all these nuances? I recently got a custom Micron and already I have to deal with the stitching errors and on another post I found that the RSL lanyard velcro can damage the reserve risers if not modded somehow.. fucking hell honestly.. "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #13 June 23, 2011 How are we supposed to know all these nuances? Maybe... EDUCATE yourself? Like they say, want a guarantee?...buy a toaster! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #14 June 23, 2011 Quote Maybe... EDUCATE yourself? Trying to, but you can't always know such hidden stealth issues, specially if you're not somekind of a rigger, but just a fun weekend jumper.. Quote Like they say, want a guarantee?...buy a toaster! When it comes to custom gear, yes I want a freakin guarantee so I wouldn't have to go around lookin for whatever stealth problems the gear has so I wouldn't have to deal with them when it's too late..."All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #15 June 23, 2011 Quotehidden stealth issues Seriously? http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=48Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #16 June 23, 2011 Quote Quote Maybe... EDUCATE yourself? Trying to, but you can't always know such hidden stealth issues, specially if you're not some kind of a rigger, but just a fun weekend jumper.. Quote Like they say, want a guarantee?...buy a toaster! When it comes to custom gear, yes I want a freakin guarantee so I wouldn't have to go around lookin for whatever stealth problems the gear has so I wouldn't have to deal with them when it's too late... Well...being interested, asking questions, doing your homework to become knowledgeable is one way. Hoping someone 'else' gives you everything you need/want to know through osmosis, all gift wrapped with a pretty bow is another... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #17 June 23, 2011 Quote Screw dying in a collision, swooping or even forgetting your rig... Nothing comes close to having a dodgy manufactured gear and these "stealth" problems that the average joe doesn't know about, which can kill so freakin easily.. Gear fear is the worst shit How are we supposed to know all these nuances? I recently got a custom Micron and already I have to deal with the stitching errors and on another post I found that the RSL lanyard velcro can damage the reserve risers if not modded somehow.. fucking hell honestly.. I'll bite... UPT is NOT dodgy, I have called them, emailed them, and even visited them. They will give you a tour of the entire production floor, for free... they will show you things you probably didn't know they did, how they do it, and even some insight as to WHY they do it. I even brought my rig to them to verify a couple things I had questions about, they took all the time I needed to be comfortable with their answers. I am a very big fan of UPT and have a nice new V3-M sitting in my apt that I absolutely love. They weren't stitching 'errors', they decided to upgrade the stitching to a stronger one, in order to reduce the chance of a one in a million mal, happening again. The SB doesn't require that the stitching be replaced immediately (provided its in good shape), and if you have a new rig, you've probably got plenty of time before those stitches become any sort of an issue. The RSL velcro you're complaining about, is because the rigger didn't put a mating piece on top of it. If you don't remove your RSL/Skyhook, its a null issue. However, if you are afraid of your gear, let me know what you have, and I'll give you a few hundred bucks for it. Maybe I'm more fearless than you. Don't try to bs and say unless you're a rigger you can't know everything about your gear... how the hell do you think we became riggers?? It wasn't by complaining and saying we don't know anything about the gear, because we weren't riggers! I am a weekend funjumper AND a rigger. Being one doesn't exclude being the other... and hell, if you're both, free repacks! "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #18 June 23, 2011 ...free repacks! ~Where's my pencil. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #19 June 23, 2011 I'm not saying UPT is dodgy at all, they release service bulletins after all.. It's just a bit annoying to find these things out once you have a custom rig.. And thanks for explaining in more detail about those 2 issues, I guess they aren't as bad as I thought, but I'll still keep them in mind to get it fixed in the future.. We live and learn afterall don't we "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #20 June 23, 2011 Quote ...free repacks! ~Where's my pencil. Only counts if you stole the pencil "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #21 June 24, 2011 Quote The RSL velcro you're complaining about, is because the rigger didn't put a mating piece on top of it. If you don't remove your RSL/Skyhook, its a null issue. (off the main thread topic) Yet I've seen V3's a few years old where the RSL was chewing up the reserve risers. Had to sew a type III tape cover flap over the RSL area. The RSL hook and the harness pile velcro were the same width. Other rigs (newer ones?) have wider pile velcro, reducing the chance for stray hooks to catch on things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #22 June 24, 2011 why ? would dragging a line with fish hooks over a barbed wire fence be a good idea ? Think,,read the manual... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #23 June 24, 2011 Quote He didn't bother reading the manual which clearly warned that the double-sided RSL MUST be disconnected on at least one side before chopping a main during a 2-out situation. His ended up with 2 out and cutaway the main while both sides were attached to the risers. The main slid straight up the reserve lines, choking it and causing it to collapse. IMO that's a poor design choice, to have a failure mode like that. I know the reasoning behind the double RSL, but I don't think the pros and cons were properly weighed. Also, I have not trained myself to release the RSL prior to chopping a two-out. The small RSL lanyard with the small ring on the end is not much of a snag hazard compared to the risers already hanging on the bottom of your main. You should have good separation forces already before you chop. I'm not saying I won't rls. the shackle, I'm just saying if time is short, I'll probably skip it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #24 June 24, 2011 Quote Quote He didn't bother reading the manual which clearly warned that the double-sided RSL MUST be disconnected on at least one side before chopping a main during a 2-out situation. His ended up with 2 out and cutaway the main while both sides were attached to the risers. The main slid straight up the reserve lines, choking it and causing it to collapse. IMO that's a poor design choice, to have a failure mode like that. I know the reasoning behind the double RSL, but I don't think the pros and cons were properly weighed. Also, I have not trained myself to release the RSL prior to chopping a two-out. The small RSL lanyard with the small ring on the end is not much of a snag hazard compared to the risers already hanging on the bottom of your main. You should have good separation forces already before you chop. I'm not saying I won't rls. the shackle, I'm just saying if time is short, I'll probably skip it. I was kind of thinking the same thing John, then I started playing the 'what-if' game in my head... Looking at MY rig, what if the reason for the two out was a broken reserve loop, & the reserve pin is still somewhat connected to the top flap. Maybe the force of cutting away will clear it, maybe it will jam it leaving the now unbalanced main connected to the container by the RSL...THAT would kinda suck.Certainly if time is a factor I'd chop and hope, but I'm just looking for / thinking about things that may go wrong with that reaction. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #25 June 25, 2011 Ahhh yes, thanks for the input, Jim. I can see that even in your scenario, the RSL would be relatively free (after it pulled clear of the ripcord and broken closing loop) but it's still worth considering. I figure if I ever end up with 2 out, it will probably be a low pull followed by an AAD fire, similar situation. Remember when all these piggy back rigs with 3 rings and hand deploys were all new, and we had to figure a lot of this $hit out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
