Guest #1 March 5, 2003 A Different take on the situation."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DYEVOUT 0 #2 March 5, 2003 . . . . . waiting for the imminent barrage of left wing rhetoric. . . . ----------------=8^)---------------------- "I think that was the wrong tennis court." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #3 March 5, 2003 Quote. . . . . waiting for the imminent barrage of left wing rhetoric. . . . Well, call me a hawk then because I totally agreed with the article. War is total and complete. If it has bounderies then it is useless and only creates more catastrophe in the long run. It has to have a clear goal of removing the power that brought about the war to begin with. Otherwise it only festers into more war and destruction years down the road. Just like between WWI and WWII compared to GWI and the impending GWII. This needs to be finished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pojo 0 #4 March 5, 2003 pojo In heaven all the interesting people are missing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #5 March 5, 2003 Those are some valid points however it is not relevant to the current situation. In the examples cited in that article, the protests were after agression had already begun. It was obvious that the agressors in those situations would not be dissuaded from their paths without force. I don't believe the same is true in this situation. Force was justified in the Gulf war and I didn't oppose it. Iraq had invaded Kuwait and had its sites on Saudi Arabia. They needed to be stopped. Iraq is not now directly threatening anyone. If we left them alone completely, I'm sure they would and then force may again be necessary. But we're not leaving them alone, we're forcing them to disarm. And we're doing it peacefully. If that fails, then yes, force may be necessary and I would then support it. However I don't think it has failed yet and think we still have the opportunity to achieve our goals without violence. That the type of rhetoric you were looking for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DYEVOUT 0 #6 March 5, 2003 Yes, that would be it. ----------------=8^)---------------------- "I think that was the wrong tennis court." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #7 March 5, 2003 This is a good article... I am not a "pro-war" kind of person, but unfortunately life is not so simple as "giving peace a chance". War is an inevitable part of humanity (on many different scales) that will exist as long as there are people who feel the need to control others - and I have met many people who fall under this category at a much lower level than Saddam, but they are no less evil. Regardless, I will still hope that this conflict ends in a peaceful resolution... And I am very grateful to all the troops who are defending our country as I speak... The Dept. of Defense has some good articles on their website about Iraq: http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq.html It is written by the govt., so it may be biased, but probably no less truthful than anything we see or hear from the media... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #8 March 5, 2003 "Obvious" is greatly dependent on the historical perspective of the person saying it.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #9 March 5, 2003 QuoteBut we're not leaving them alone, we're forcing them to disarm. And we're doing it peacefully we have no right to force iraq to dissarm, and we are NOT doing it peacefully as we are bombing iraq day and night right now, and have been for weeks (in the no fly zones) as no other country in the world has the right to force us to dissarm. the u.s. complains about iraq and the "axis of evil" we have fought communism (aka: axis of evil) for many years, lots of lives lost. now, we fought communism because the communist insisted they force their politics on everyone else. what are we doing now? have we turned into what we once strived so hard to prevent? the very thought of the u.s. even entertaining the thought of having enough gall to tell sadaam hussein to leave his homeland, and live in exile to prevent a war is ludricrous. i can tell you this, if someone were to come to me and tell me to get off of my homeplace that my father left me, even though it's just 135 acres, i'd tell them to get f*cked. what do we expect sadaam's reaction to be? what it all boils down to is common sense. my main question has always been: "who's policing the police?" i get sick and tired of being the world's babysitter and chief financial contributor, after all this one as the others before it will be on the taxpayers, i've got better things to do with my money, and i am tired of financing campaigns that i don't agree with. has anyone given any thought to paying for everything we tear up, and the trillions of $$$ this has costs us in the past? not to mention, if it happens, the cost of a post war sadaam iraq, who's going to pay for it? we will, now that's communism for you. "If none of us believe in war Then can you tell me what the weapons for? Listen to me, everyone If the button is pushed There will be no place to run" John Osbourne AKA: Ozzy Osbourne--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #10 March 5, 2003 Quotewe have no right to force iraq to dissarm Actually, we do as per the agreement they signed at the end of the gulf war. Quotewe are NOT doing it peacefully as we are bombing iraq day and night right now, and have been for weeks (in the no fly zones) True, but again, that is because they have facilities in those areas in violation of the agreement they signed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #11 March 5, 2003 QuoteActually, we do as per the agreement they signed at the end of the gulf war. gulf war...1991? who has been monitoring this situation over the years? why NOW out of the middle of nowhere do we decide to all of the sudden like make them comply? especially with the threats? this should have never happened, especially since they tried to take the same buildings down from the basement in 1993, why didn't we make iraq dissarm then? this is all about one thing, the "super power" of the world was made a fool of on 09/11 and now somebody's got to pay for it. if my memory serves me correctly ol wyubya was sitting in a classroom with a bunch of children when someone stepped in the room and whispered in his ear that a tragedy had occured, just like pearl harbor, there was a bunch of people playing golf, swimming, relaxing, chasing women, and all of a sudden like...BAM, we have got to know by now if someone is going to attack us, they will do it when our gaurd is down. yeah, we may be the richest nation in the world, but we're not always the smartest even though we claim to be. you see we all know a little bit about avaition, i think that's a safe assumption, those planes should never have been allowed to deviate from their filed FAA flight plan(s), and since they did, we did nothing about it until it was too late. it's ugly, but the plan is to eliminate any aircraft that is deviating from a filed FAA flight plan if communication is not established with the PIC of the aircraft. we knew when the planes deviated, we knew how many, and still, we did nothing. i know this is a sobering thought pattern, but it's a reality.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #12 March 5, 2003 Quotewho has been monitoring this situation over the years? why NOW out of the middle of nowhere do we decide to all of the sudden like make them comply? ...umhhh...let's see, it wasn't Bill & Al....umhhh... Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #13 March 5, 2003 Quote...umhhh...let's see, it wasn't Bill & Al....umhhh... yeah it was, but this goes back to my original question: "who's policing the police" it is my belief that we're all responseable in some small part. we know our political leaders are glamorized thieves, liars, lazy and ignorant and yet we tolerate it.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #14 March 5, 2003 Quoteyou see we all know a little bit about avaition, i think that's a safe assumption, those planes should never have been allowed to deviate from their filed FAA flight plan(s), and since they did, we did nothing about it until it was too late. it's ugly, but the plan is to eliminate any aircraft that is deviating from a filed FAA flight plan if communication is not established with the PIC of the aircraft. we knew when the planes deviated, we knew how many, and still, we did nothing. i know this is a sobering thought pattern, but it's a reality. Excuse me but there could be any number of reasons for deviating from a flight plan. Namely an aircraft emergency! I don't want to get shot down just because I'm dealing with "smoke in the cockpit....smoke in the cabin". The general public didn't want to listen to the pilots before 9/11. We said the system was lax on security. See where that ignoring got us? The public doesn't want to listen to us on carrying guns in the cockpit. I wonder where it'll get us for ignoring us again. By the way, I deviate from my flight plan all the time for weather. You gonna shoot me down because I won't fly into a Level 5 thunderstorm? Chris Schindler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #15 March 5, 2003 Quote It is written by the govt., so it may be biased, but probably no less truthful than anything we see or hear from the media... In my lifetime, the following administrations (governments) were known to have lied to the American people or Congress (which is the same thing): Eisenhower Kennedy Johnson Nixon Reagan Bush I Clinton I'm not sure about Ford or Carter. So in my opinion, any information coming from the government is suspect until confirmed by an independent source.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #16 March 5, 2003 QuoteI deviate from my flight plan all the time for weather. You gonna shoot me down because I won't fly into a Level 5 thunderstorm? well no, of course not. maybe i should have clarified my point by saying 4 planes deviating from a filed FAA plan within minutes of each other. truth of the matter, we had a really good idea of what was going on. and i'm in total agreement with PIC carrying handguns in the cockpit. i fly from the states to saudi and back every 28 days and i have noticed nothing more than a lock on the cockpit doors of the aircraft Northwest/KLM flies and the DC8's don't even have that. anybody could access the cockpit if they wanted to, heck, we load up on the planes right by the cockpits you could just waltz right in there they leave the doors open, it does raise a high level of concern for me i would like to see the cockpit "secured" before/during/after allowing passengers on and off the plane.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #17 March 5, 2003 I didn't say the motives and timing aren't questionable. Just that we do have the right. We should have done it earlier. I agree that we do have to get Iraq to disarm, they are definitely a threat to middle east stability and therefore our well being. And also most likely willing to supply terrorists with aid. I'm not advocating ignoring Iraq, we should definitely force them to disarm. I just hope we can do it through the existing process and agreements, not through invasion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #18 March 5, 2003 i'm not inferring we ignore iraq either, but i am in the mind that we need UN approval. if russia, france, germany, belguim et al isn't concerned about them we shouldn't be either. the reason the european countries do not want a war is because their homefronts have borne the brunt of battle for too long now. sadaam needs dealing with, but the arabic people do not react positively when confronted in a threatning manner. as i've said, this shouldn't even be an issue, it should have been dealt with, and incidents that lead us down this path could have been avoided. what is the answer? i don't know, if i did i'd be the richest man on earth. but i do believe if we attack iraq and try to eradicate sadaam from his country we will all pay, sooner or later, flying transatlantic isn't any fun now, i'd have to quit if we do go in iraq, it's not safe now.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
