I'm scared

[wmw999 2,584]

diatribe alert: I had a long talk with my brother tonight. He lives and works in Brazil (normally a quite friendly country). He sells aircraft engines to the military -- not your most tree-hugging group as a rule. He's lived in Brazil a total of 17 years; 9 as a child, 8 now. Not a particularly "foreign" type there. And he feels weird there now.

The general feeling there is that the US is turning into a rogue state. That the US is willing to unilaterally decide on the worthiness of a regime and (based on its impact on the US) do something about it. Since they're close to Chile, where we've already done this, it's not an unreasonable fear.

One way to react to this is to say "well, they'd better not get on our bad side, huh." But just like the very strict parent's child, when he rebels, rebels all out, a reaction against the US will be strong, and will not be met with the kind of sympathy that 9/11 was met with.

Trust me, 9/11 was met with sympathy.

I don't think that might makes right, and I don't think that we'll bring Armageddon and the rapture if we are instrumental in starting a war in the Middle East. I don't think we stand alone, apart from the rest of the world, unless we choose to. And if we choose to, then we'd damn well better figure they might choose to stand together against us, or at least keeping us outside.

I love America. I've lived elsewhere, and I appreciate and enjoy the freedom and prosperity we have. While I've never been in the military, I've worked in more than one low-paid federal job.

And I'm scared. Not that we might not be stronger right now, but that we might think that right now and stronger are the only important things.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[FallingILweenie 0]

As a Chilean, with parents who have told stories about what life was like when Allende was in power, before the US came in, I have to say that intervention was about the best thing that could have happened........

[Gawain 0]

Wendy, sometimes one must live in the moment. No one person can alleviate your fears. Projecting the future, while remembering consequences of the past only leaves crap on today (or: If you have one foot in yesterday, and one foot in tomorrow, you're pissing all over today).

I question the "general feeling" you describe. If you want to see what a "rogue" state is, check our BBC.com and click on the links as to how Saddam rules his people, and Kim Jong-il perpetuates his paranoia.

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That the US is willing to unilaterally ...

For the 1,583,209,537,765th time: The United States of America is not acting unilaterally.

Here is a partial list of countries which have voiced support for US foreign policy, and constitutes a coalition of willing states to participate in action, logistical, finanacial support:

United Kingdom

Spain

Italy

Portugal

Czech Republic

Hungary

Poland

Denmark

Turkey (despite the recent vote)

Latvia

Bulgaria

Pakistan

Israel

Kuwait

Qatar

Australia

Meanwhile (in reference to Chile), the economic growth in Chile was at record levels through the 90s. They contracted with the recession (like everyone else) and saw exports begin to rise again beginning 2000.

Despite the US diplomatic differences with France, Germany and Russia, what have we done to retaliate? A lot of US citizens are coming up with "Freedom Fries" and web-sites, but what has our government done in these matters? Nothing but disagree (and some tough talk from Rumsfeld).

I don't support a brash US response to countries that disagree with our policies.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[lazerq3 0]

I just have to chime in here but theres one thing i dont understand...all these people and students protesting the war using there "right to freedom of speech"..... WERE THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU GOT IT FROM..... It wasnt handed over on a silver platter....everyone wants there "freedom" of this and that but nobdy wants to have to fight for it....let OL Saddam come over here and run things for a while ...then maybe you'll hve something to bitch about....OPPS Know you wont cause you dont have your FREEDOM anymore!!!! In the words of Adam Corrolla (sp) SHUT YOUR PIE HOLES!!

P.s this post is not intended for anyone here just venting over the reading I've done on MSN.com

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[Michele 1]

I think Wendy is expressing a concern she feels very sharply, and while I don't personally agree with the assessment she makes, I really can understand her position. She perceives a family member in potential danger, and is concerned for his wellbeing, as well as stating her position on the conflict.

Wendy, the only thing I can say is yes, there is a danger right now, to any american, anywhere in the world, any time at all. A 14 y/o american girl was killed in a bombing in Israel today; yesterday, a pastor was blown to bits in the Phillipines. The day before that, N. Korean jets surrounded a recon plane of ours in international waters.

It's a dangerous time...

I will say, also, that I heard the same commentary when Clinton initiated the Bosnian insertion. "Unilateral", "rouge", etc., but it worked and eventually proved the correct move.

As to this war being considered 'unilateral', there are many countries, some of which Gawain named, who support the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. If it happens, it will not be without the stated support of many countries. Whether they have the resources and manpower to go there with us is a different story.

Hang in, Wendy. He'll be alright. So will you. And so will we all.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[MC208B 0]

I'm scared to! Has nothing to do with Saddam or that jerk in North Korea. Has everything to do with our very own government. Sept 11th, 2001 (hate that 9-11 thing) was probably the darkest moment in our history for Americans, yep, worse than Pearl Harbor since the Japanese were military men attacking military targets. I was all for getting all the payback we can (kill them preferably to capturing them), still am. What I am scared of is what is happening to us in the US in the name of "security". You drive an SUV, you're supporting terrorism. Light up a joint, ditto. Dare to disagree with attacking Saddam, "your papers please". I'm an aircraft mechanic working at PDX and have been rebadged a couple times since Sept 11th, 01 due to ever changing rules to "enhance" security. Port of Portland went along with the "random searches" of vehicles approaching the terminal. Delta
Airlines has agreed to run credit checks and run bank accts when you check in. Who knows where this will end! And of course, the Sheeple chant "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" HELLO!!!!!! You have everything to worry about!!!!! Mainly, the end of freedom in the land of the free. Now that's some scary shit folks.

I'm an in country Vietnam vet, voted for Bush (lesser of two evils I thought at the time) and those jerks that tie up traffic beating on their peace drums or whatever the hell they call them really piss me off, so I'm not a Peace, Love Dub kinda guy at all. Saddam is not a threat to the "free" world, just some payback to Dad.

As I said to my co workers when everyone was jumping on the bandwagon in the original Gulf War, if Kuwait was one of the largest exporters of cucumbers, would we be helping free them?!?

Shit, I think I'm getting drunk, later all! Mike

[lazerq3 0]

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You drive an SUV, you're supporting terrorism

95 honda passport...hey al quada all the way!! Wtf does an SUV have to do with anything?

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[PhreeZone 20]

SUV's consume more gas then other cars. By buying more Iraqi oil then another car your supporting terrorism. Iraq does support terrorism right?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[lazerq3 0]

.

Quote

By buying more Iraqi oil then another car your supporting terrorism. Iraq does support terrorism right?

So what your saying is that ONLY SUV's use Iraqi oil?? And no other automobile uses Iraqi oil!! COme on people next you'll tell me by eating certain imported foods We'er supporting terrorism!! Well fuck it then ...good times!!!! I'll drive my SUV and eat beef shwarmas (sp)

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[splittail1 0]

I'm not sure if you didn't get the reference, but MC208B is referring to some rediculous commercials that have been running on tv where they try to tie owning an SUV to support of terroism. I've heard that these commercials are funded by some independent group - that apparently has some very perverse ideas. I could possibly see how one could, maybe, again possibly, tie heroine use back to terroism, but a joint?!?! an SUV!?!?

Oh yeah, and I think students protesting the war is great. Last time I checked - this country is for the people, by the people - a democracy. Its through each person fighting for what they believe in that things get done. How else was this country founded? Protest is the root behind the balance of power - we must constantly question our leaders - remember, they report to us.

I beleive in the USA, what it was founded on and the fundamentals our four fathers put into play. And anybody who feels the current government is trying to take away, or perverse these fundamentals, has my support to stand up and say something.

I'm scared too. I've been scared since 9/11, of our own government. The fear 9/11 placed in everybody has turned so much of this country against so much of what it was founded on.

[lazerq3 0]

Quote

I'm not sure if you didn't get the reference, but MC208B is referring to some rediculous commercials that have been running on tv where they try to tie owning an SUV to support of terroism.

No I didnt get the refernce nor have I seen those commercials so in that I appoligze....my bad!!

However even though protesting is our right I really dont think the majority of protesters even understand to the full extent of what there protesting...its just an excuse to cause problems and raise hell!! So At that we dont see Eye to eye and maybe thats just my ignorance but hey this is America and we'er allowed ..right? Good times!!

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[jraf 0]

We have some real superpowers supporting us. I bolded them out:

United Kingdom

Spain

Italy

Portugal

Czech Republic

Hungary

Poland

Denmark

Turkey (despite the recent vote)

Latvia

Bulgaria

Pakistan

Israel

Kuwait

Qatar

Australia

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hey Hans, in order to test the strength of the support form these countries, and their belief that what they are doing is the right thing, ask yourself this question.
Do you think ANY of these countries would embark upon an military course of action if the US pulled out?
Interesting scenario huh?

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[airtwardo 7]

*** Saddam is not a threat to the "free" world, just some payback to Dad.

Quote

I said that the day '41' got elected...
Sadam is gonna wish he hadn't put out a "contract" on daddy!

If Mcain would have won the nod and then the office, I was betting he'd call Hanoi and say, "Hey skippy...it's back ON!"

I voted for George's #1 & #2 because I thought they were sharper than brand X, running against them.
The head of the CIA makes for a better President and CEO than some Gov. of Arkansas...for god sake.

I can't help but roll my eyes every time some ole
' Bobby Beergut' tells me how "dumb" our President is...The guy flew fighter jets as a 'part time' gig!
...ran a MLB team!! Was making some real positive changes here in Texas, until he got a better offer...
I wish I could be so "dumb"

I think the "fear" many people are feeling now is due to enlightenment...9/11 woke up 'Joe Lunchbox' to the reality that all is not warm and fuzzy in the neighborhood...life is fragile and this tiny planet is in fact a dangerous place. Americans caught on to the concept that going to work, or even opening your mail could KILL you!
Our lives will never be the same.

Where is the outrage?!

Right or wrong, for some reason a bunch of pinheads saw fit to attack us and kill thousands of innocent people. Disrupt our entire way of like...
If we don't spank EVERYONE even remotely involved, things will be unimagineably worse down the road.
I understand the discontent felt by other countries concerning our agressive response...but screw 'em! If they don't like our rules then stop taking our money...if their 'game plan' was so great, they wouldn't be lookin' to Uncle Sammy for the gravey all the time...if you wanna make a value judgement on any of our policies...pay your oun bills!
France shouldn't even be allowed near the U.N.
-They have NEVER paid the required monitary dues for membership! The 'past due' bill is in the hundreds of millions!!

This IS the best and strongest nation in the world...I don't want my leaders trying to keep everyone else on the rock happy...just keep ME happy, and safe!
I know the cost will seem high now...but that's often the case when investing in the future.
We have to tell the world now...as we did in 1945-
Shit in MY yard...and I'll burn your house down!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[Guest]

Quote

I don't think that might makes right, and I don't think that we'll bring Armageddon and the rapture if we are instrumental in starting a war in the Middle East.

Wendy,

I've been thinking along those same lines, but what occurs to me whenever I do is - "...thy kingdome come, thy will be done..."

If you believe as you say, then you must surely have faith that it's all foretold. As my wife once said, "I've read the end of the book and I know how it comes out."

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Muenkel 0]

Hi Wendy,

I promised myself I would stay out of political threads. However, you express a very valid concern. My niece is currently in London studying and I am also concerned, since she is American.

All I wanted to comment on was the false idea that the U.S. is a rogue nation. Rogue nations invade other countries without warning for the purpose of occupying and ruling them. Rogue nations do not diplomatically give warning after warning that the other nation's actions are leading them into war. The burden here is on Saddam Hussein, not on the U.S. It was made very clear to him (in fact he signed the agreement) what the world expects him to do. The U.S. has been extremely patient and very diplomatic. I too believe war should always be a last resort and pray everyday that this situation can be resolved peacefully. I also pray for President Bush and Saddam Hussein that they be given clarity of mind, so this can be resolved peacefully. If there is a Deity out there that is greater than us, I think prayer will accomplish alot more than demonstrations.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[rhino 0]

There is a GROWING Pro-War movement at colleges like HArvard and Stanford..

Rallies will be held world wide soon..

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

There is a GROWING Pro-War movement at colleges like HArvard and Stanford..

Rallies will be held world wide soon..

No one in their right mind is "Pro War"

I am Pro LIBERTY

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rhino 0]

Their words are PRO-WAR RALLIES... lol

[wmw999 2,584]

"Rogue state" is a relative term. It's like "polite." It has to do with your position within a structure or society, and your behavior towards others. What's rogue in one society isn't in another -- consider the old west; vigilante actions that were OK then are no longer anything remotely resembling OK. Quick hangings are no longer OK (and they really weren't then -- it was abuse of them that caused so many protections to be put into place).

A man or woman who beats their children regularly (and has beaten up other people in the past) is somewhat analogous to Saddam right now. It's totally unacceptable. But if a really nice, really powerful guy 6 streets down goes to his house to blow him away, that guy is still violating the norms of society.

The perception is real. What we, as a country, have to do is not necessarily simply kowtow to whatever is desired by the weakest most cooperative person out there. We can help define the direction of the world. We just can't do it unilaterally.

There are countries whose governments have said they would support us. Does that mean the people agree? Not in most of them. And it's individual people, not governments, who express their hatred in terrorism.

The horror of OBL is that he organizes terrorism and turns it into a state (albeit one without borders). The vast majority are not like that. Doesn't make them good, just weaker.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gawain 0]

Quote

"Rogue state" is a relative term. It's like "polite."

I disagree. Being polite still has a foundation that is universally accepted. Politeness in any given culture does not include punching your guest or host. Being polite in the Old West still included helping a lady across the street, taking your hat off when you walked indoors, etc.

Quote

A man or woman who beats their children regularly (and has beaten up other people in the past) is somewhat analogous to Saddam right now. It's totally unacceptable. But if a really nice, really powerful guy 6 streets down goes to his house to blow him away, that guy is still violating the norms of society.

If law enforcement does not do its job, then taking unsanctioned action may be necessary to save the family.

Quote

The perception is real. ..... ..... There are countries whose governments have said they would support us. Does that mean the people agree? Not in most of them. And it's individual people, not governments, who express their hatred in terrorism.

I cannot argue for or against this point, I do know that a weekend of demonstrations does not constitute a majority one way or the other. Most demonstrations however, are indicative of a "vocal minority".

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rgoper 0]

Quote

We have some real superpowers supporting us. I bolded them out

thanks jraf, you saved me the trouble. as far as Quatar, we OWN it.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[racer42 0]

Don't worry. Elections are in less than 2 years. Oh yeah, don't forget to dump this Congress too!!

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[rgoper 0]

Wendy:

i know exactly how you feel. my best wishes for your brother and his family.

anyone here who supports a war with iraq without consent of the UN without a "modified" agreement i say this: "come join these fine men, women and children here in the middle east when the bombs start falling" the US of A won't be a safe place at all unless we do this EXACTLY politically correct. and regardless, if we tear the freaking place up...remember...we're paying for everything to be put back together. at least we're supposed to, turkey's decision to not let us use their country was based largely on the fact we did not live up to our commitments to them from the gulf war. either way it's not going to be pretty, unless we just leave this one alone for a while. until the citizens of the usa come over here and stay in the desert for a while, learn the culture and the countries it's just a spot on the map, it has no face, no voice, as you all know, i'm in saudi now and it isn't any fun. i'm here right now, with the military based just to my west in Quatar, (and good ol' yemen to my south) and if they go, i'll probably go with them. did i mention the flights over here are "high stress?"

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

anyone here who supports a war with iraq without consent of the UN without a "modified" agreement i say this: "come join these...

Ya know, I'm sick of this shit. Why do we need the backing of the UN? Why do other countries feel the need to wait around for an official statement from the UN before decide on a course of action? Fuck the UN. If action is necessary, and it seems more and more that it is, then a lack of backing from the UN doesn't make it unjust, or unnecessary, only unpopular. We can lead or we can follow. I would prefer that we lead.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.