billvon 3,110 #76 March 6, 2003 >Damn, how did you get that out of what I said? Reread this thread. I did, and I will quote what you said: >People are crying about their feedoms being stripped away and have > really not felt any hardship. They just want to complain about > something. Perhaps you meant people other than the people posting here, in which case, that may well be true. For my part, I am 'crying' about people's rights being stripped away even though my rights have been infringed only a little (my ability to fly as a private pilot has been limited, and my email can now be more easily read.) >How did you turn this into a race issue anyway? It is not a race issue; it is an issue of minorities of any type. We tend to have this worldview that things that affect other, small groups of people (i.e. minorities) are not worth consideration; you suggested such a thing above when you mentioned the whiny people who complain when their _own_ rights are not violated. You implied such people only want to complain; they have no other "good" motive. Our civil rights, even for those citizens who are powerful, rich, normally immune to harassement etc are no stronger than the civil rights afforded the least among us. I am glad to hear people complain about loss of rights even when it does not affect them directly; it means we're paying attention to an absolutely critical issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #77 March 6, 2003 Quote you suggested such a thing above when you mentioned the whiny people who complain when their _own_ rights are not violated. I didn't suggest that. You misinterpreted it that way because it made it easier to argue against. I didn't bring up minorities or races or any other politically incorrect jargon you would like to associate with me. My point is that the entire issue is being blown way out of proportion. You are making mountains out of molehills (to quote a very articulate gentleman). [to self]Ok, now someone bring up Germany in the 1940s[/to self]. Well, this isn't Germany just like Hussein isn't Hitler (turnabout is fair play). "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #78 March 6, 2003 >We have always given up some of our liberties for security. We are > still trying to find the right balance. Agreed; it is, however, unsettling when one branch of the government, one which does not ordinarily pass laws or decide on constitutionality, "gives up" a significant number of those rights for us in a short period of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,584 #79 March 6, 2003 QuoteDamn, how did you get that out of what I said? Reread this thread. People are complaining about their freedoms being taken away, not someone elses. Right now it sounds more like some big conspiracy theory than anything else. I've read the whole thread. When I posted, I include myself among people whose privacy and rights have been decreased. Why? Because they are Americans, and I am an American. I may not be a Muslim, or a convicted (or even suspected) felon, or an atheist, or a pagan. But if they are Americans, then we share that. And I want there to be a whole lot of scrutiny of these things happening. Because if no one complains when it's someone else's rights, then no one will be left to complain when it's theirs. I think the police have a hard job; especially in the cases where someone who is legitimately bad is being protected by the laws that protect the rest of us. The problem is that the laws apply to all of us. It's the American way, and it's one of the things that makes us different from a lot of other countries. When you deal with a lot of guilty people, it's easy to forget that not everyone is guilty. A police officer friend of mine told me that. When 80% of the people really are guilty, it's hard not to assume they're guilty until proven innocent. But it's essential. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunman 0 #80 March 6, 2003 QuoteYeah, all of us "bad old police officers" are just trying to put innocent people in jail and harrass US citizens. Give me a break. Our armed forces are outstanding and deserve a lot of respect but there are a lot of other people and agencies contributing to your safety and security. I never said or implied that police officers are bad. I didn't even mention the word "police" and I was not aware that you are a police officer. You seem to be taking my comments a little personally. My point is that I don't have blind trust in my government to do what's right, and I'll bitch and moan when I disagree because (for now, anyway) I have the right to do so. If they spent more time trying to really keep me safe AND protect my rights and less time trying to give me the illusion of safety, I'd probably shut the hell up. Blindly trusting your government and not getting pissed off when your rights are infringed (even slightly) is simply un-American. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #81 March 6, 2003 QuoteQuoteI should add that I hold in the highest esteem those who are REALLY protecting us, the men and women of the armed services. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude for the work they do in protecting us from those who would do us harm. Let's just not forget to make sure that our own government is not the one who is doing us harm. Yeah, all of us "bad old police officers" are just trying to put innocent people in jail and harrass US citizens. Give me a break. Our armed forces are outstanding and deserve a lot of respect but there are a lot of other people and agencies contributing to your safety and security. Quote The systematic torture of suspects in Chicago through the early 1990s wasn't science fiction. The cops got a number of convictions and death sentences that way. Unfortunately for the cops, after the innocent guys had been on death row for a few years, the truth came out. I might also mention the guy who was sodomized with a broom handle in a NYC police station, and the other one who was gunned down with 39 bullets in his body while unarmed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #82 March 6, 2003 QuoteThe systematic torture of suspects in Chicago through the early 1990s wasn't science fiction. The cops got a number of convictions and death sentences that way. Unfortunately for the cops, after the innocent guys had been on death row for a few years, the truth came out. I might also mention the guy who was sodomized with a broom handle in a NYC police station, and the other one who was gunned down with 39 bullets in his body while unarmed. Unfortunate incidents for sure, but what percentage of law enforcement activities do you think this really represents? It's a shame that we tend to sensationalize the negitive and ignore the positive. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sarge 0 #83 March 6, 2003 I will make it clear that my opinoin is borne in cynicysm, which is why i/I feel it is important to acknowledge, the similarities I identify between Law Officers and Politicians/Legislators. Quote My point is that I don't have blind trust in my government to do what's right, and I'll bitch and moan when I disagree because (for now, anyway) I have the right to do so. If they spent more time trying to really keep me safe AND protect my rights and less time trying to give me the illusion of safety, I'd probably shut the hell up. Blindly trusting your government and not getting pissed off when your rights are infringed (even slightly) is simply un-American. Law Officers, in this point,[Police], are not as concerned about your rights as you are! No matter what they tell you. They are trying to to the job the best they know how, usually, but every officer has an agenda. Just like the legislators that pass these assinine laws, expecting the judicial system and law enforcement to, 'tie up the loose ends.' When abuses by police of citizens civil liberties are revealed they generally unviel deeper and darker historic systemic values within that particular organization. But I just close with the comment about/against the individual perpetrators. We all have an individual responsibility to declare what is right, moral and proper. We all have the right to try to make clear to those that seek to subdue our freedom of speech and liberty, that we will not be silenced or suffocated by selfish motives. If alone one voice has resonance, many resound together to sing, if not to our brothers, then to Heaven, the cries for freedom and equality. blah, blah....-- I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,584 #84 March 6, 2003 Quote I was going to pick some pithy part of this post to agree with. But it's a really good post overall. The fact that we all have our own agendas, while mostly trying to do our jobs and live our lives, shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, and it shouldn't devalue what people do. The fact that none of us is perfect doesn't take much away from what we do right, any more than what we mostly do right doesn't lessen the hurt when we do wrong. Countries have their own agendas, too. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #85 March 9, 2003 Quote QuoteThe systematic torture of suspects in Chicago through the early 1990s wasn't science fiction. The cops got a number of convictions and death sentences that way. Unfortunately for the cops, after the innocent guys had been on death row for a few years, the truth came out. I might also mention the guy who was sodomized with a broom handle in a NYC police station, and the other one who was gunned down with 39 bullets in his body while unarmed. Unfortunate incidents for sure, but what percentage of law enforcement activities do you think this really represents? It's a shame that we tend to sensationalize the negitive and ignore the positive. - Jim Well, statistics indicate that 1 in a million skydives ends in a fatality, but I certainly adopt a cautious approach to my skydiving. I'd venture a guess that there's far more than 1 in a million chance that a cop is crooked (especially in Chicago where despite overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing, the bent cops have not been disciplined effectively), so why wouldn't I be cautious if a cop approaches me?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #86 March 9, 2003 There's an interesting article Here describing a futile attempt by New Hampshire police to make model rocket fuel explode using blasting caps, det cord etc. Despite this, ATF still classifies the fuel as "explosive". "It's the Government, it doesn't have to make sense".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Jimbo 0 #82 March 6, 2003 QuoteThe systematic torture of suspects in Chicago through the early 1990s wasn't science fiction. The cops got a number of convictions and death sentences that way. Unfortunately for the cops, after the innocent guys had been on death row for a few years, the truth came out. I might also mention the guy who was sodomized with a broom handle in a NYC police station, and the other one who was gunned down with 39 bullets in his body while unarmed. Unfortunate incidents for sure, but what percentage of law enforcement activities do you think this really represents? It's a shame that we tend to sensationalize the negitive and ignore the positive. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sarge 0 #83 March 6, 2003 I will make it clear that my opinoin is borne in cynicysm, which is why i/I feel it is important to acknowledge, the similarities I identify between Law Officers and Politicians/Legislators. Quote My point is that I don't have blind trust in my government to do what's right, and I'll bitch and moan when I disagree because (for now, anyway) I have the right to do so. If they spent more time trying to really keep me safe AND protect my rights and less time trying to give me the illusion of safety, I'd probably shut the hell up. Blindly trusting your government and not getting pissed off when your rights are infringed (even slightly) is simply un-American. Law Officers, in this point,[Police], are not as concerned about your rights as you are! No matter what they tell you. They are trying to to the job the best they know how, usually, but every officer has an agenda. Just like the legislators that pass these assinine laws, expecting the judicial system and law enforcement to, 'tie up the loose ends.' When abuses by police of citizens civil liberties are revealed they generally unviel deeper and darker historic systemic values within that particular organization. But I just close with the comment about/against the individual perpetrators. We all have an individual responsibility to declare what is right, moral and proper. We all have the right to try to make clear to those that seek to subdue our freedom of speech and liberty, that we will not be silenced or suffocated by selfish motives. If alone one voice has resonance, many resound together to sing, if not to our brothers, then to Heaven, the cries for freedom and equality. blah, blah....-- I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,584 #84 March 6, 2003 Quote I was going to pick some pithy part of this post to agree with. But it's a really good post overall. The fact that we all have our own agendas, while mostly trying to do our jobs and live our lives, shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, and it shouldn't devalue what people do. The fact that none of us is perfect doesn't take much away from what we do right, any more than what we mostly do right doesn't lessen the hurt when we do wrong. Countries have their own agendas, too. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #85 March 9, 2003 Quote QuoteThe systematic torture of suspects in Chicago through the early 1990s wasn't science fiction. The cops got a number of convictions and death sentences that way. Unfortunately for the cops, after the innocent guys had been on death row for a few years, the truth came out. I might also mention the guy who was sodomized with a broom handle in a NYC police station, and the other one who was gunned down with 39 bullets in his body while unarmed. Unfortunate incidents for sure, but what percentage of law enforcement activities do you think this really represents? It's a shame that we tend to sensationalize the negitive and ignore the positive. - Jim Well, statistics indicate that 1 in a million skydives ends in a fatality, but I certainly adopt a cautious approach to my skydiving. I'd venture a guess that there's far more than 1 in a million chance that a cop is crooked (especially in Chicago where despite overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing, the bent cops have not been disciplined effectively), so why wouldn't I be cautious if a cop approaches me?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #86 March 9, 2003 There's an interesting article Here describing a futile attempt by New Hampshire police to make model rocket fuel explode using blasting caps, det cord etc. Despite this, ATF still classifies the fuel as "explosive". "It's the Government, it doesn't have to make sense".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
