Homeland Security and Model Rockets

[billvon 3,111]

>Pleae name a few instances where your freedoms or privacy have
> been intruded on since September 11, 2001.

Secret military prisons where US citizens and non-citizens can be held forever without being charged.

Expanded wiretap capabilities; reduced requirements for initiating a tap.

Freedom of information access to most government records suspended.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

they will, no doubt, ask for blanket restrictions for most everything one can imagain. and they know it will get hacked down one point at a time by one of the three branches. and i think they have been trying to nail the weekend rocket warrior for some time.......they cause much stress for the ATF out west in the deserts. yep, they are probably going too far, and thier is really little or nothing that can be done about it. this county is not, and has not been, free for a long time.......personally, i am thinking of austraila and i have heard all good things about it!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Guest]

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Israel has never had an aircraft hijacked, we could learn a thing or two from how they do business.

El Al has strict and stringent profiling that it carries out on all passengers, as well as the ability to arrest you for "seeming nervous" and brought back into an interrogation room and detained indefinitely (I do believe that's correct - however, I may be mistaken).

No-one will allow profiling here in the US. Even the slightest appearance of profiling here would bring the roof down. Because we won't allow the basic tenant of the Israeli success, there is no way we will be able to mimic their success.

Ciels-
Michele

As I may have mentioned in another thread, I once flew El Al and was grilled at JFK and at Ben Gurion. They're very thorough.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kmcguffee 0]

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Secret military prisons where US citizens and non-citizens can be held forever without being charged.

Expanded wiretap capabilities; reduced requirements for initiating a tap.

Freedom of information access to most government records suspended.

Actually, the question was how have your freedoms or privacy been intruded on. Have you been in a military prison? Have you been wiretapped? Have you attempted to get information through the FOIA and been denied?

People are crying about their feedoms being stripped away and have really not felt any hardship. They just want to complain about something.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Guest]

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We will continue to lose them until we use the power of the vote to stop it.

It's long past the point where voting will make any difference. As I have mentioned elsewhere, your vote might get a politician in or out of office, but it will do nothing to influence the Mandarin Bureaucracy, which exists to serve only itself.

Voting won't change things inside the beltway.

Only when the Mandarins see us making hangman's nooses outside their windows will things change for the better.

I'm not for overthrowing the federal government, but I am for destroying the bureaucracy and returning rights to the states and the people, most of which were long ago usurped by the feds.

But that would mean citizens would have to take a more active role in their government. Things will have to get a lot worse before that happens.

Maybe if enough people are abused by the Committee for State Security (aka TSA), there will be a groundswell.

And does anybody really believe we'd be in this mess if we had a more responsive and responsible federal government? Do I see a hand?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kmcguffee 0]

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15000+ people died in 2000 due to alcohol related traffic accidents. I'm thinking that it would be more worth while to work on those numbers before working on threats that might or might not exist still.***

Yeah, in 15000+ different incidents. Little bit of a different problem than one coordinated terrorist incident killing 3,000 people.

I do foresee a day where the ATF starts limiting guns since it prevents possible future terrorist actions.

Guns are already limited by the ATF.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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I'm not for overthrowing the federal government, but I am for destroying the bureaucracy and returning rights to the states and the people, most of which were long ago usurped by the feds.

Been to any militia meetings lately?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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I don't think they are stupid as much as ignorant and misguided. Without major changes and a huge budget, actually increasing our security level would be difficult.

I agree with you 100%. Everytime the government tries to institute a change that will actually increase our security it gets watered down and made ineffective by people scared to death they might be inconvenienced by the government. When the next attack happens it will not surprise me a bit.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[sfc 1]

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15000+ people died in 2000 due to alcohol related traffic accidents. I'm thinking that it would be more worth while to work on those numbers before working on threats that might or might not exist still.

And there were 28,663 gun related deaths in the USA according to the CDC. It would be hard for the terrorists to kill that many in a year in the USA.

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I do foresee a day where the ATF starts limiting guns since it prevents possible future terrorist actions.

This would probably save a lot more non-terrorist gun deaths than terrorist relate ones.

[wmw999 2,587]

I remember a couple of quotes. The one about "people who give up their freedom for security deserve neither" is one. The other is the one about "first they came for the Gypsies, but I wasn't a Gypsy (etc. etc. etc.)"

Am I alone in thinking that it's easy to say that other people's privacy and freedom being violated should be taken as seriously as mine?

I realize that Iraqi's freedoms and privacy don't exist in the same ways that ours do. But neither do most countries'.

I can see where some of our perceived freedoms may be more perceived than freedom. But I damn well want a whole lot of study before we give it up. Kind of like the police getting to the data mined information, I want it to be a major pain in the ass.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kmcguffee 0]

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The one about "people who give up their freedom for security deserve neither" is one.

This quote doesn't mean a whole lot. On one extreme is anarchy and the other extreme is a prison. There has to be a balance.

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The other is the one about "first they came for the Gypsies, but I wasn't a Gypsy (etc. etc. etc.)"

Yeah, it creeped up on Germany. People ignored the changes and didn't speak out or try to help with grass roots plans to fix the problem. My point earlier was that too many people expect everything done for them by the government. If you are unhappy with how things are then study the problem, come up with a solution, and try to fix it. Don't sit around and complain how no one listens to me, they're all idiots, and I don't trust big government. That will do nothing but stagnate the process and leave us right where we are now.

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Am I alone in thinking that it's easy to say that other people's privacy and freedom being violated should be taken as seriously as mine?

Everyone's privacy is important. My point was that everyone is screaming the sky is falling but very little has actually changed in their daily lives.

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Kind of like the police getting to the data mined information, I want it to be a major pain in the ass.

It should not be a pain in the ass. That only serves to slow down the process of stopping crimes (allowing more to happen). It does not prevent the police from getting the information. What we need are checks and balances in place to protect your privacy. The process of getting the information should be streamlined. Our current process uses a Grand Jury to protect your privacy, but most citizens serving on a Grand Jury do not take their job seriously. Then after we get the subpoena through the Grand Jury it takes 2-3 weeks to get the information. That is up to a month after we requested it. A lot can happen in a month. The current process is not necessarily a pain in the ass it just takes forever.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kallend 2,146]

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The one about "people who give up their freedom for security deserve neither" is one.

This quote doesn't mean a whole lot. On one extreme is anarchy and the other extreme is a prison. There has to be a balance.

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The other is the one about "first they came for the Gypsies, but I wasn't a Gypsy (etc. etc. etc.)"

Yeah, it creeped up on Germany. People ignored the changes and didn't speak out or try to help with grass roots plans to fix the problem. My point earlier was that too many people expect everything done for them by the government. If you are unhappy with how things are then study the problem, come up with a solution, and try to fix it. Don't sit around and complain how no one listens to me, they're all idiots, and I don't trust big government. That will do nothing but stagnate the process and leave us right where we are now.

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Am I alone in thinking that it's easy to say that other people's privacy and freedom being violated should be taken as seriously as mine?

Everyone's privacy is important. My point was that everyone is screaming the sky is falling but very little has actually changed in their daily lives.

It's changed mine a lot. I'm a pilot, I build large model rockets, I travel on the airlines, and I transact business electronically. In every case a reduction in freedom or increase in surveillance (or both) has occurred. Additionally I teach college, and notice that a lot of international students are arriving late for the start of the semester due to travel and visa hassles.

You may not be old enough to remember, but the income tax was originally a temporary measure. It never went away.

Don't be so cavalier in dismissing other people's freedoms.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

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The one about "people who give up their freedom for security deserve neither" is one.

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This quote doesn't mean a whole lot. On one extreme is anarchy and the other extreme is a prison. There has to be a balance.

Actually, here's the full quote. I don't think it is extreme at all and I think it perfectly describes the current situation.

"They that would give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[PhreeZone 20]

Was that Ben Franklin that said that?

I just found out that I'm now also affected again by the TSA regulations. I used to backpack fairly seriously and was scouting spots for a long weekend trip or something and it turns out that you are now unable to ship a camp stove via any airline do to the "possibility of combustion". I'd like to know how a stove with no fuel in it can suddenly just blow up? I've worked with and rebuilt more stoves then I care to remember and I've never even once smelt gas once the stove is burned out and the cap off. The TSA just made camping stoves $125-200 desposible items if you are flying.

The risk of a cigeratte lighter blowing up is higher then an empty stove. But the lighters have some large lobbying power and the little "tree hugging hippies" that backpack don't.

As for the search warrent for data... it should be as hard as possible to get due to the new level of invasion of privacy that the TIA is going to create. Its already out there reading all your email, instant messages, and most the electronic data in the world, now it will all be in one nice neat database that will only take a click of a button to generate a report showing every bit of data you ever handled. (I do similar reports for work but businesses are under strict laws on what they can and can't monitor)

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[pilotdave 0]

Yup, I've flown El Al a few times. They don't mess around! They are not afraid to pick suspicious people out just by how they look, and they will also question everyone else thoroughly. They'll ask where you're staying, why you're going, how you're going to get around. They'll ask to see your maps, etc.

I heard a story about my mother's uncle from years ago, before all airline security was so serious. He said to his wife in the security line something about a bomb, obviously a joke... apparently he got strip searched for it.

I'm all for profiling. The little old lady didn't do it!

Dave

[kallend 2,146]

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Yup, I've flown El Al a few times. They don't mess around! They are not afraid to pick suspicious people out just by how they look, and they will also question everyone else thoroughly. They'll ask where you're staying, why you're going, how you're going to get around. They'll ask to see your maps, etc.

I heard a story about my mother's uncle from years ago, before all airline security was so serious. He said to his wife in the security line something about a bomb, obviously a joke... apparently he got strip searched for it.

I'm all for profiling. The little old lady didn't do it!

Dave

Don't underestimate little old ladies. I believe my ex-mother-in-law to be capable of anything.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[falxori 0]

well, El Al, is a pretty small airline dealing with much fewer passengers than most US airlines.

and about profiling, it is used, but less than it was used in the past.
as we all know, terrorists get smarter quickly, so we have to also...

in every airport these days, you are being watched ALL the time and you WILL be stopped if you look too nervous.
hope we'll be able to live without it soon
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[sunman 0]

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Actually, the question was how have your freedoms or privacy been intruded on. Have you been in a military prison? Have you been wiretapped? Have you attempted to get information through the FOIA and been denied?

Not YET, not YET, not YET...

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People are crying about their feedoms being stripped away and have really not felt any hardship. They just want to complain about something.

Of course we're whining and crying. We'd better raise a big huge stink right now before they take away more freedoms! My life doesn't revolve around model rocketry, but it does revolve around skydiving. If they can take away somebody else's aviation-related hobby, what makes you think they won't take away mine? Of course we're pissed! We should be furious! If we let them take away ANY of our freedom, then what's to stop them from taking more? Don't forget about the two weeks after 9/11 when nobody could fly or skydive. And for what? The illusion of safety. Thank's to Big Brother's need to fool us into thinking we're being protected, all aviation-related industries suffered a HUGE setback and thousands of people lost jobs. I seem to remember an America that was founded by people who said things like "give me freedom or give me death", and acutally lived those words. When did that get changed to "give me safety and take away my rights?" I don't feel safe. Not from my own government, anyway.

I should add that I hold in the highest esteem those who are REALLY protecting us, the men and women of the armed services. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude for the work they do in protecting us from those who would do us harm. Let's just not forget to make sure that our own government is not the one who is doing us harm.

Power corrupts. For more details, read "1984".

[robskydiv 0]

Freak, you make a salient point. Somehow, we all have to build some kind of network for securiy. But how do we do it?

[billvon 3,111]

>Actually, the question was how have your freedoms or privacy been
> intruded on. Have you been in a military prison? Have you been
> wiretapped? Have you attempted to get information through the
> FOIA and been denied?

Nope. By the time you're in prison, it's too late. (Try to go to a demonstration while in prison; it's difficult.)

>People are crying about their feedoms being stripped away and have
> really not felt any hardship. They just want to complain about
> something.

So if a black man was killed in your neighborhood by a few racist cops, you would think the people who protested "just wanted to complain?" Is any evil, any violation of rights OK as long as it happens to some _other_ american?

Personally I think civil rights belong to all citizens, not just the people we think are deserving. In fact, protecting the people who _aren't_ white upper class males is even more important than protecting the rich and powerful; their rights are more easily trampled.

[kmcguffee 0]

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So if a black man was killed in your neighborhood by a few racist cops, you would think the people who protested "just wanted to complain?" Is any evil, any violation of rights OK as long as it happens to some _other_ american?

Damn, how did you get that out of what I said? Reread this thread. People are complaining about their freedoms being taken away, not someone elses. Right now it sounds more like some big conspiracy theory than anything else.

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Personally I think civil rights belong to all citizens, not just the people we think are deserving. In fact, protecting the people who _aren't_ white upper class males is even more important than protecting the rich and powerful; their rights are more easily trampled.

So only "white upper class males" are "rich and powerful"? OK. How did you turn this into a race issue anyway?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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I should add that I hold in the highest esteem those who are REALLY protecting us, the men and women of the armed services. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude for the work they do in protecting us from those who would do us harm. Let's just not forget to make sure that our own government is not the one who is doing us harm.

Yeah, all of us "bad old police officers" are just trying to put innocent people in jail and harrass US citizens. Give me a break. Our armed forces are outstanding and deserve a lot of respect but there are a lot of other people and agencies contributing to your safety and security.

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Power corrupts. For more details, read "1984".

You might want to take a step back and remember that it was a science fiction novel. You know, not real.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[quade 4]

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You might want to take a step back and remember that it was a science fiction novel. You know, not real.

Exactly how real do you need it to be?


BTW, HERE is a nice 1984 summary page for all of you that want to contrast and compare fiction and reality.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kmcguffee 0]

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Exactly how real do you need it to be?

If you think we are close to that then you really don't understand our system of government. It has flaws. It is not perfect. I (as a law enforcement officer) cannot violate people's rights willy nilly. But, if you don't give the government the power to solve the problem then don't expect the problem to be solved.

Some seem to have forgotten what our essential liberties are. The bill of rights outlines them very well. http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/bill_of_rights/amendments_1-10.html

Also, the Supreme Court ruled a long time ago that your liberties are not absolute. It goes back to the old "yelling fire in a crowded auditorium" argument. We have always given up some of our liberties for security. We are still trying to find the right balance. I guess that means we deserve neither security or liberty unless we live in an anarchist society.

I think Ammendment Four is cited in arguments regularly. Here it is:

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Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Notice the word

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unreasonable

. It doesn't say all. Now the debate is actually over what is unreasonable. It does not say that the government has to be 100% certain that you committed a crime. It says that the government must be reasonable in making the determination that you have committed a crime.

Someone made the point that the government is reading their e-mail. I just had to submit a Grand Jury Subpeona to get access to someone's e-mail subscriber information. If I wanted to read your e-mail then I must do a search warrant affidavit supported by probable cause and signed off by a judge before I can get access. So, we're not there yet.

My point.........the sky is not falling; if you want change then submit a solution not a problem; you support the government by assisting in solving problems not whining because other people aren't solving them for you.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[quade 4]

Damn, I wish I had more time right now to reply to this in detail, but I don't, I hope somebody else does.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver