quade 4 #1 March 3, 2003 Ok, I'll be the first to admit that I've abused the privileges of model rocketry in the past and haven't always followed the precise guidelines for safety, but I did learn a bit about Newton's 3rd Law as well as a bit about trigonometry in the process. I can't believe that people in the future won't be allowed the simple pleasure of rocketry because the TSA has its' head so far up its' ass it can't tell the difference between a model rocket motor and an explosive. http://www.klydemorris.com/rocket_engines.cfmquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 March 3, 2003 I had thought that the only sector of model rocketry that had been effected were the guys that made the VERY large model rockets, the ones that Estes doesn't exactly make motors for. <---smiling, remembering the fun he had as a kid playing with model rockets...and that one time his friends thought they could use one as a substitute for a pyrotechnic in a play.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoobieCootie 0 #3 March 3, 2003 These Totally Stupid Autorities can't have their asses any more backwards?This ain't real is it? Not like skydiving hasn't robbed me $$$ enough to play with model rockets anyway... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 March 3, 2003 Nope. As the law is currently worded and will go into effect on May 24 anything containing "rocket propellant" will require all parties along the shipping and disribution chain to have a security clearance. This effectively kills model rocketry unless an exemption is put into the law. More info at; http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.htmlquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #5 March 3, 2003 QuoteI had thought that the only sector of model rocketry that had been effected were the guys that made the VERY large model rockets, the ones that Estes doesn't exactly make motors for. The restriction is on shipping, so you can still use the motors, you just might have a hard time getting them. And they actually do make very large "stock" motors sizes, well into the upper half of the alphabet (the lowest power starts at 'A'). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #6 March 3, 2003 www.washtimes.com/national/20030303-50543080.htm As a keen high power rocket builder, I already contacted the Illinois senators. What a bunch of idiots we have running the country right now.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #7 March 3, 2003 http://www.msnbc.com/news/877295.asp?0dm=C389T More details on it. Its true, Fedex is going to ban anything over the A class engine. The E12-5 is no more Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #8 March 3, 2003 See - I had this plan for strapping 336 F class motors onto a platform, standing on it with my rig on and using it to launch me up to altitude where I could separate and freefall back to earth and open my parachute. It's not as cheap as a jump ticket, but I think the babes would dig me for doing it. Another perfectly crazy idea made illegal by the government.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phatcat 0 #9 March 4, 2003 I built a bunch of those when I was a kid. Hopefully this will get sorted out quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #10 March 4, 2003 QuoteI had thought that the only sector of model rocketry that had been effected were the guys that made the VERY large model rockets, the ones that Estes doesn't exactly make motors for. <---smiling, remembering the fun he had as a kid playing with model rockets...and that one time his friends thought they could use one as a substitute for a pyrotechnic in a play. The ATF restrictions are on anything with more than 62 grams of propellant (Hardly VERY large rockets). The DOT restrictions affect everything. The most common propellant for larger rockets is APCP (Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant). It cannot be made to explode even if you use a blasting cap. So ATF has classified it as an explosive! Of course, you may have 50 POUNDS of black powder under your bed quite legally, if it's for antique firearms. Talk about STOOPID! A little bit of freedom is lost every day.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #11 March 4, 2003 a little off topic, but my mom just told me yesterday that the homeland security is also trying to shut down general aviation (ie, no more skydiving). they want to make it so, when you fly, u have to file a flight plan or something (like you can't just go jump in the plane and go, i guess). or something like u can't fly over 3500 ft, or something like that. i'm not a pilot, and i don't follow up on this stuff, i just have heard. hehe, the swoop comps would get bigger, i mean, if we can only do like hop'n pops all day. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phatcat 0 #12 March 4, 2003 Quotehomeland security is also trying to shut down gerneral aveation If that's true, I'm leaving the country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #13 March 4, 2003 It hasn't gone quite that far yet. For up to the minute updates about homeland security issues and general aviation, check the AOPA web site. AOPA is a very strong lobbying group far more powerful than the USPA could ever hope to be. AOPA is our friend.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #14 March 4, 2003 QuoteIt hasn't gone quite that far yet. For up to the minute updates about homeland security issues and general aviation, check the AOPA web site. i know that it isn't that far along, but it is coming to it. and i have no idea why. it makes no sence to me later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #15 March 4, 2003 Take heart -- the TSA will not shut down general aviation unless there is another incident the scale of September 11th. I doubt they could even require implementation of the flight plan system for very long without some sort of very strong justification.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #16 March 4, 2003 So I figure it's back to building our own model rocket engines. Also this way we can attach them to our rigs, get to altitude and skydive successfuly. Damn spotting from ground level will be tough though jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #17 March 4, 2003 QuoteTake heart -- the TSA will not shut down general aviation unless there is another incident the scale of September 11th. Without some very strong changes in how we find and defeat the potential terrorists we will eventually have another September 11th. There is not a bit of doubt in my mind about that and I work on a Joint Terrorism Task Force. Instead of calling everyone that is trying to keep it from happening again "stupid", why don't you guys who know how it should be done write up a detailed plan and submit it. I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm serious. This might just be an issue of someone with limited (or no) model rocket experience being tasked with stopping the threat of a terrorist attack by small rockets. If you have the experience and knowledge then put it to use to solve the problem. Don't wait until they have invested time and money in a plan then throw wrenches in the solution. If that happens we'll be right back where we started. Find out what type of attack they are trying to stop and help in finding a solution. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phatcat 0 #18 March 4, 2003 Quote So I figure it's back to building our own model rocket engines See, it's the cloud's silver lining - now we get to be creative! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #19 March 4, 2003 Quote. . . why don't you guys who know how it should be done write up a detailed plan and submit it. I believe that's exactly what is being advocated along with the pressure supplied by a letter campaign. The problem that I have with the department of homeland security and the TSA in general is they seem to do absolutely no research into how their highly reactionary and sledge hammer like rules will effect a much wider range of freedoms and businesses. They arbitrarily use a phrase like "rocket propellant" and have no idea that they've essentially wiped out an entire industry -- nor do they seem to care. It's like their "advise" to travel with luggage unlocked. That's another totally stupid idea. And yes, I'll defend my use of the word stupid here because if they took maybe 5 seconds to think about it, they'd realize that there are a lot of alternatives.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #20 March 4, 2003 I am more then willing to have another September 11th once a year as long as the privacy and freedoms that we had Pre-September 2001 are restored. At issue is the fact that they are not using experts to make the new laws. You would'nt take the recommendations of a computer programmer on the intricate details of running a nuclear power plant and the spent fuel, why have non experts creating the travel and explosive laws? I've emailed my representitives on issues in the past that I felt strongly one but unless you have degrees in the subject matter and are well known in the field, the reply was that the TSA knew better then me. I've lost faith in the TSA and keep hoping every day some one will move to have them disbanded along with the "Homeland Security" department. Name one other nation that has a department of "Homeland" security...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #21 March 4, 2003 QuoteName one other nation that has a department of "Homeland" security... We have a department of homeland security because the term "fatherland" had already been used. The TSA stinks. The department of homeland security stinks.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #22 March 4, 2003 QuoteI believe that's exactly what is being advocated along with the pressure supplied by a letter campaign. From what I've seen it is more of "this is stupid, don't do it". They are not presenting an alternative plan that will address the issues. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #23 March 4, 2003 QuoteAt issue is the fact that they are not using experts to make the new laws. They are usually experts in the field. This does not mean they are model rocket hobbyists though. QuoteI am more then willing to have another September 11th once a year as long as the privacy and freedoms that we had Pre-September 2001 are restored. Do you really realize what would happen to this country if we allowed a September 11th once a year? How many airlines went bankrupt after September 11th? How many jobs were lost? Think about what could be done if our oil or telecommunications industries were targeted next. It wouldn't take much more to really effect our economy. Pleae name a few instances where your freedoms or privacy have been intruded on since September 11, 2001. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #24 March 4, 2003 Freedom to travel unrestricted like before 2001. I used to be able to have my luggage locked when I put it on an airplane and it would be locked when it got to its destination. Now if you have a lock it can and does get cut off and they will and seaarch your luggage if anything seems "odd". There are no predetermined critera that says what odd is , its up to the agent. Total Information Awareness is just frightning in its uses. A lot of nontech people think its a good idea but a lot of geeks know just haw bad data like this can be used or misused. All it takes is one mistake in the code and you go from being an average person to being the most dangerous person in the US. This totally bypasses laws like HIPPA that require gaurenteed levels of privacy on medical records. To the TIA all data is is 1's and 0's so it don't care if its reading yourr email, your bank records, your insurance records or your medical records. Restricting access to perfectly ligitimate things like model rocket engines is another. Technically your cypres is getting close to some of the limits imposed too so they might be able to be banned in any aspect of flight or ground transport.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #25 March 4, 2003 There's always hybrid rocket motors. I helped build one for a school project a few years ago. It basically used rolls of paper for fuel and nitrous oxide for oxydizer (whippits). I actually bought a case of nitrous cartriges from a drug paraphanelia website since that was the best price I could find. The project was actually sponsored by my school so we were going to have the state of maryland pick up the tab, but decided not to submit that receipt. We had plans to build a 100 lb thrust version that would burn for 10 seconds. We had it designed but never built it. For that we were going to use medical grade nitrous and homemade rubber fuel with aluminum powder. The nice thing about hybrids is that transportation and storage of the fuel is easy. Downside is they are (as of now) far less efficient than solid or liquid fueled rockets. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
