billvon 3,090 #226 March 11, 2003 >As should be obvious to one of your intelligence and maturity, > throughout history...which is normally written by the victors of wars, > so is the version of peace. Might makes right. Only to fools. Fools, for example, still believe that we merely defended ourselves against the warring American Indians, rather than wiped them out for their land. Fools believe that we never had Japanese internment camps here in the US. Fools believe that the Civil War was fought over freedom from slavery. I prefer not to be a fool. >In context of countries throughout history...they were right until >proven wrong. I have a different version of right and wrong than you do. If a man kills another for his money and hides the body, and is never caught, he's still wrong. Might does not make right, and weaker people are not necessarily wrong. If you truly believe that - do you believe OJ Simpson is innocent of the criminal charge of murder? Or that Clinton is innocent of any wrongdoing? Both were cleared i.e. both "won." >It may not be politically correct or right....but still the truth. Truth is reality. Words mean things, and often their meanings are not changed just because you can beat the crap out of someone. This is good news for people who believe in justice and bad news for criminals who want to beat the crap out of people. >But war can lead to peace. >Twist away. Truth is whoever wins the fight? War leads to peace? I can't hold a candle to your ability to twist. You should work for our administration! I'm sure they need a speech or two on how incarcerating US citizens in a secret military prison, forever, will increase our freedom. Or something like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #227 March 11, 2003 Excuse me, perhaps I was unclear. After most wars, there is a time of relative peace....until humans forget what happened and do it again.....Did I lose you there?? Perhaps you think I defend war? I don't. I also don't defend peace when its wrong either...and I am a firm believer in that human nature will generally chose the wrong course of action. As for terror yet to come...you bet lots more...no matter what we do. If we don't stand fast, they will think we are spineless and soft targets. If we attack we make martyrs by the thousands....I grasp your point amigo. Truly I do. So if you think that we fight wars....to avoid peace (by whomever's definition)...why don't you enlighten me with what our goals with war are???? I have all night to be ludricrous and contradictory.JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #228 March 11, 2003 Quote Everyone thinks he can push the button. A lot of people hope he won't. And GWB does not want war. It's up to SH to disarm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #229 March 11, 2003 I agree. I think this is a huge game of poker with the entire future at stake. I think GWB is standing by his principles, making calm decisions and sticking by them. In 6 months I think it will be very very interesting to look back and see who was on our side. And I think GWB knows this very well when he is letting everyone go on record. GWB is a very smart man, and is surrounded by a smart cabinet. (Bill will very obviously disagree here) I have seen his work in state government. I fully believe he and his staff have evaluated all the options and are proceeding with the best course for the country.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #230 March 11, 2003 As I have said you are a wonderful word twister... No we slaughtered the Indians...didn't we? Buyt what are kids taught in history class? Who wrote that history? What are kids taught about the Civil War? Japanese interm camps??? You bet. I bet every American in Japn was rounded up as well.....Only difference is we didn't kill them as spies. If the Axis had won WWII...Hitler would be remembered as a great man. As I said oh great word bender...I did NOT agree this was right..but it is true. So you may prefer to not be a fool....but naive perhaps. Our version of right and wrong is not different. But our enforcemnt of iron clad princilples certainly is. OJ and Clinton were found innocent...how I feel about that don't matter does it? Your version of diplomacy let them walk. My version would not. Through all of this, all you have exhibited to me is your ability to carry on a great debate. To use bits and pieces of things to bend to your point. Congratulations...you would make a great diplomat.JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #231 March 11, 2003 >No we slaughtered the Indians...didn't we? Buyt what are kids taught >in history class? Often that which is taught to children isn't the entire truth. Really want to expose a 10 year old to the realities of, say, the Dresden firebombing? Most teachers do not, and so instead teach a very sparse version of history. Know names, dates and places and you'll get an A on the test in 5th grade. Understanding history requires more than that 5th grade education, though. It takes tracking down both sides of history (winners AND losers sides) and seeing what the real issues were. Want to learn about the Civil War? Ignore the textbooks and read the Articles of Confederation. You'll see some unexpected stuff. >If the Axis had won WWII...Hitler would be remembered as a great > man. Do you think Ghengis Khan was a great man? He was an evil tyrant that nonetheless "won" most of his battles and built a great empire. Some people are capable of seeing that that alone does not make him great, that the evil he did makes him . . .well . . . evil. >OJ and Clinton were found innocent...how I feel about that don't > matter does it? Your version of diplomacy let them walk. >My version would not. A year ago I was on jury duty and I saw David Westerfield being brought to trial down the hallway. I was 90% sure he had killed Danielle. But even if I had a rifle I would not have killed him there, because supporting the system benefits us greatly. It means there's a mechanism for dealing with criminals, and a way to administer justice to all. Most of the time it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It is, overall, a good thing that we have it. So yes, I'd still let them walk, although I'd get both of them on civil charges - because someday I may need that system, and if I have supported it up until then, it will be a strong one. >Through all of this, all you have exhibited to me is your ability to > carry on a great debate. To use bits and pieces of things to bend to > your point. Congratulations...you would make a great diplomat. What would your ability to define right as "what the winners think" make you a candidate for? We've seen leaders throughout the world who define "right" as "what I have the power to do." It's not a pretty crowd to associate with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #232 March 11, 2003 Quote You might as well attack New Zealand HMMmmmm....they do have all those sheep..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #233 March 11, 2003 History is written by the "winners". That's an OLD know fact. What I've gathered here, "everybody" truly believes that their personal thoughts are the only ones that define Justice and what's "the right thing to do". None of which has proven productive or able to resolve a single honest situation. People do not like a problem, yet do not offer up a solution. The human mind has just become nothing more than a sad thing. All who I liked and/or respected and some I though intelligent, can offer no solution but, rather campaign their own agenda to take one more step toward trying to prove "their point". I have yet to hear a protester give me an explanation of their great solution to any cause. That's sad. -Fare well_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #235 March 11, 2003 As in the past allow to me say: I do not agree that might makes right, so please stop putting words into my mouth........but I will say that countries throughoiut history have practised it as a way to increase their wealth, protect and further their interests...Can you disagree with this? Right or wrong it is a sad fact. What was done to the American Indians was a slaughter....yet how many Americans are willing to give back their houses and land and move back to wherever their ancestors were from? So the even sadder fact, is that so long as the people are on the winning side, we tend to go along with these little historic tragedies. Countries do what is in their best interests...period. It is why the UN will ultimately fail. It is why mankind as a whole is so messed up. We live by our own rules and change them as needed...we make new resolutions to cover what we want.JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #236 March 11, 2003 QuoteIt is why the UN will ultimately fail. While I agree with this... I believe a UN type of get together is the only hope man kind really has... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #237 March 11, 2003 Just really curious about middle east culture...does anyone know if the family unit, including aunts/uncles/grandparents etc. is "stronger" than over here? I was just thinking about something, adn was curious about hearing an answer from people who might know - Richard? BillV? Anyone? Espeically if you're middle eastern...I'd love to know first hand. Thanks! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #238 March 11, 2003 FRom my time in the sand in happier more peaceful times, I'd say the 'family unit' culture is very strong. You only have to look at the much publicised structure of the Iraqi government to realise that nepotism is not only rife but encouraged.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #239 March 11, 2003 Quote You only have to look at the much publicised structure of the Iraqi government to realise that nepotism is not only rife but encouraged. That's kinda what I observed, but wanted someone who had more than an observation to confirm. Familial ties seem to be greatly stressed, moreso than even in Hollywood.... Thanks, NacMac! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #240 March 11, 2003 QuoteJust really curious about middle east culture...does anyone know if the family unit, including aunts/uncles/grandparents etc. is "stronger" than over here? I was just thinking about something, adn was curious about hearing an answer from people who might know - Richard? BillV? Anyone? Espeically if you're middle eastern...I'd love to know first hand. Michelle: good question. and the answer is a resounding YES. i'm german by descent, and in our culture, re: to the way i was raised is the family, starts as a family, and ends that way. but to answer your question, the arab/muslim culture is for the "head" of the family generally the father, when they build a home(s), they build a home(s) big enough for ALL of the sons, daughters, and their wives, husbands, children, etc as well as providing "apartments" for their parents until their demise. so ultimately the type of homes they build are not the type of homes we are acclaimated to, they are generally 3-4 story palaces, costing upwards of 750 million saudi riyal to build. (2 million US $$$) they build them sectional, because they are allowed up to 4 wives, and of course they have children with each of the 4 so you can imagine how many kids they wind up with. each wife and her (their children) will have their own "section" of the house. men and women are not allowed to comingle, even at social gatherings, they have seperate patios, and sitting rooms, bathrooms etc. each palace is equipped with marble floors, columns, gold plumbing, pursian carpets, swimming pools, saunas, etc, and the swimming pool area is generally on the first floor on the west side (entrance always on the east side) and enclosed so as not to allow anyone to view the area from above while flying overhead (they place a "domed roof" over the pools) or looking from another part of the home, which you cannot see the pool from the 2nd or 3rd floors anyway, because they intentionally do not put windows in them on the pool side for this specific reason. men and women do not share pool time, no men and women in the pool area, or sauna area together at the same time, ever, unless it's the "head" of the house having a little fun with one of his wives. there is also seperate dressing areas for the men and women as well. their culture is one of the most interesting i've seen, these guys get 4 wives! and even then, 90% of them take only 2, because in their culture you have to give each wife and child the equal amount of time, money, attention, etc...an arab/muslim that i work with showed me the plans for his "vacation" home just a couple of days ago, i couldn't believe it i was humbled, and all this time i thought i was living in the lap of luxury, NOT. by the way, he has 2 wives and 19 children, two sons in the US attending college and they raise arabian horses. just a sidebar...so if anyone wonders why the arab/muslims build "palaces" this is the main reason why.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #241 March 11, 2003 Wow, Richard...I do appreciate all that insight. Quite clarifying and educational. Thanks! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #242 March 11, 2003 no problem. i wish i could take some jpegs, but they get nervous when an american whips out a camera.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #243 March 11, 2003 Very insightful, but that has to be mainly royalty/rich? Surely the average citizen does not live like that?-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
highfly 0 #244 March 11, 2003 QuoteI think the goal is to live free from terror. To be safe at home. But put yourself in the place of all the innocent civilians in Iraq that are sat in THEIR homes totally unaware about what exactly is going to happen to them. Just the thought of this makes me feel sick. Yes terrorism is a terrible thing, but so is war. Sadly both go hand in hand. We have all seen Western propaganda and what it states about Iraq as a nation. So what on earth would their propaganda about both the USA and UK be stating. The innocent people in Iraq do not deserve to live in terror both from SH and western countries threatening war with no real evidence. www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #245 March 11, 2003 They dont deserve to live in terror of the political regime of their country either.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #246 March 11, 2003 QuoteThey dont deserve to live in terror of the political regime of their country either. Nor do the North Koreans or people living in a number of other oppressive regimes around the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #247 March 11, 2003 Ahh shame.........Did somebody have a bad day? When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #248 March 11, 2003 QuoteVery insightful, but that has to be mainly royalty/rich? Surely the average citizen does not live like that? no. this man i'm referring to and thousands more just like him do the same thing for a living i do. and i can assure you, i live in no palace. the costs of living here are cheaper than the US. plus they live a much simpler life, they grow their own vegetables, lambs, beef etc...they're self sustaining. not every arab/muslim can afford this kind of home(s) but it is very commonplace here. the "average citizen" generally utilizes townhomes for their wives and families, but these are generally "urban dwellers" as we would call them. the same people who live in these nice homes don't even own vehichles, and don't even want one...go figure. by the way, my response was directed at Michelle's question about the arab/muslim culture and i thought this would provide insight, i tried to keep it pretty much balanced in terms of life in general here in saudi. one thing comes to mind while disscussing cultures, there was the post about narcs at the dz, and everyone was complaining about the poor fella who was held up, and kept from going about his way for whatever the reason. over here, this is no drugs, no alcohol no pork, no nothing. if you get caught with drugs or alcohol here you'll more than likely never see the light of day again. does this put anything into perspective for us? for me it does, i used to take my liberties for granted, not any more. i've heard complaints about dropzone.com being blocked in certain areas, think about living somewhere they didn't even allow internet unless provided by the nation you lived in, unless it's provided by the govt. my browser won't let me go a lot of places, it has "key" words it looks for, and if you try to access a place with a key word, the CPU will generate a log and send it to the webmaster. i'd say we take quite a bit for granted at home in the states. moral of story: be grateful for what you have and not what you don't have.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #249 March 11, 2003 Quote Where do you stand? on my feet......--if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #250 March 11, 2003 Quote QuoteI think the goal is to live free from terror. To be safe at home. But put yourself in the place of all the innocent civilians in Iraq that are sat in THEIR homes totally unaware about what exactly is going to happen to them. Just the thought of this makes me feel sick. Yes terrorism is a terrible thing, but so is war. Sadly both go hand in hand. We have all seen Western propaganda and what it states about Iraq as a nation. So what on earth would their propaganda about both the USA and UK be stating. The innocent people in Iraq do not deserve to live in terror both from SH and western countries threatening war with no real evidence. There was remarkably little terror, or even street crime, in the former Soviet bloc countries. Be careful what you wish for.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
