Where do you stand?

[rhino 0]

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The Pope didn't say pull them out, he said don't send them in.

Well shit... We are screwed then.. Not listening to the Pope. How DARE us!!.. lol

[mountainman 0]

Hmm.. here is something else I found. Not good for my defense, but I try to play fair:

Instead of accepting the surrender of the Iraqi soldiers, as required by law and as had been the practice in recent fighting around Sulaymaniyah, the Kurds executed them. An Iraqi soldier with no weapon, and with his hands in the air, was shot and killed a few steps from me. Seven unarmed prisoners kneeling on the ground nearby were shot to death moments later. Individually and in small groups, every Iraqi soldier I saw outside the main building was executed. None had weapons, nor were they resisting or trying to escape.

By the time I reached the main building at least seventy-five Iraqi soldiers had been herded into a large room. None was armed or resisting and many appeared to have been wounded in the fighting before it stopped. These prisoners were also shot and killed. Kurds with Kalashnikovs emptied magazine after magazine into what became a blood-soaked pile of bodies. Some Kurdish noncombatants joined in the slaughter, using blocks of concrete to crush the heads of the Iraqi soldiers who had not yet died of their wounds. Within thirty minutes, all Iraqi soldiers at the location—probably about 125—were dead.

from: http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/hors-de-combat.html

Damn... I might be tempted to gas them if they did this too. I hadn't read about any of this before. (For what I can believe of this, that is.)

http://www.brandonandlaura.com

[PhillyKev 0]

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Protecting intelligence sources has nothing to do with it.
I'm talking specifically about getting infromation from the #3 guy in Al qaeda, the mastermind of Sept 11, the head operative planner of the whole frickin gang, who we captured over 1 week ago, not some snitch or CIA informant hanging out in Bagdad.

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Protecting intelligence has EVERYTHING to do with it. How in the hell do you think the mastermind was caught? Dumb luck?

I could understand if we said we had proof, but didn't want to give specifics to protect the sources. But, we haven't even claimed to have the proof. The only thing theat Powell or Bush have claimed are suspicions. They haven't once said that they have any proof. Just that they strongly believe they are right and haven't been able to get the proof through UN inspections so the purpose of the invasion is to get the proof.

[billvon 3,090]

>You will see the evidence after Sadham is gone.. I am very confident in that..

Tell ya what Rhino. If, after the war, Bush does not produce any substantial further evidence linking Saddam to Bin Laden, you contribute $100 to Veterans for Peace. If he does produce further evidence I'll contribute $100 to the charity of your choice. Deal? If you're confident, it's a slam dunk.

[billvon 3,090]

>That the Iraqi people will be taken care of.

Oh, at least 100,000 of them will "be taken care of," no doubt about that.

>If we hit and run on this one we are truly screwed for eternity.. I think
> the administration knows this. I believe and hope they will make us
> and the world proud and start to put some of these fires out..

I have no doubt it will make you proud, which is great. Just be prepared for the world to not like it so much. When the Sears Tower comes down (or the equivalent) I hope you will be ready to put at least some of the blame on our disregard of what the rest of the world thinks, and on the hatred we've generated through our killing. The alternative - keep killing until everyone likes us - isn't really rational.

[rhino 0]

Deal Bill.....

[Snowflake 0]

BLAH BLAH BLAH....was there supposed to be some meaning somewhere in that gibberish

[rhino 0]

Your point is??? lol

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hey Brandon, distressing tales will be commonplace. I don't doubt that there are 'criminals' on every side of every conflict throughout history, from the picts playing soccer with legionaires heads, to the sort of thing you describe.
There are some pretty disturbing stories coming from the Ivory Coast right now as well.

Have a look at Amnesty International's pages to get what I consider to be reliable reports of atrocities and abuse of basic human rights.
http://www.amnesty.org/

It makes some harrowing reading.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Jimbo 0]

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Just be prepared for the world to not like it so much. When the Sears Tower comes down (or the equivalent) I hope you will be ready to put at least some of the blame on our disregard of what the rest of the world thinks, and on the hatred we've generated through our killing.

Are you serious Bill? Are you suggesting that should the Sears Tower come down that it's somehow our fault? Should such a thing happen then the blame goes where it belongs, to the individual or group that plotted and carried out the mission. To suggest that we are to blame, even a little, for terrorism on our soil is a little out of touch I think.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rgoper 0]

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So if someone asks me “where do you stand?”
This would be my reaction:
“Although I don’t agree with our world leader’s choices
I will continue to be a man of action”
But because this is the way I choose to feel
Don’t be in such a rush to call me names and judge me
After our sword has been delivered, and our destruction is through
I will still stand for the "red, white and blue."

[wildblue 7]

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To suggest that we are to blame, even a little, for terrorism on our soil is a little out of touch I think.

I actually have to agree with Bill here - a huge part of the world population doesn't just hate us for no damn good reason. And it's not like "Those greedy bastards, I wish they'd leave us alone" - no, these people are willing to die because they believe we are such evil bastards. Like he said, keep killing until everyone likes us isn't really an option. By invading, we're pretty much justifying any retaliation. So if there's an attack on US soil, they're just going to say "We'll they invaded our country! We're just fighting back!" and most of the world will agree with that. We can't say "Ok, we're going to march through your country because we think you're evil, please don't attack us though."

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[billvon 3,090]

>Are you serious Bill? Are you suggesting that should the Sears Tower
> come down that it's somehow our fault? Should such a thing happen
> then the blame goes where it belongs, to the individual or group
> that plotted and carried out the mission.

Agreed. Does that mean we should not try to defend against it? That since others are always to blame, we don't need to either try to stop them or put policies in place that will prevent such actions in the future?

We have a responsibility to try to prevent terrorist attacks in the future. Some things (i.e. increased security at our airports) will help. Some things (i.e. attacking Iraq) will increase terrorist activities. Remember that the next time you see a massive terrorist attack, when you think "how did this happen?" Accept this before, rather than after, the war brings the next generation of terrorist out of that region.

If you own a club, and you have a band cause a fire that burns down your place and kills a hundred people, it's probably not your fault; it was the band. Blame them. If you rebuild it without sprinklers and have the same band play, and overcrowd it to the same degree, and there's another fire, is it still not your fault? Will the excuse "it was all the band's fault" work the second (or even third) time that 100 people die in your club? Or at some point are you morally obligated to learn how to not have fires in your club?

[flyingferret 0]

And I suppose if we dont attack Iraq all the radical Muslims will forgive us of our evils? Besides, Bill if Iraq does not have Al-queda ties, how would it affect their decision at all, hmmm?

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[Jimbo 0]

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I actually have to agree with Bill here - a huge...

Terrorism vs. legitimate military targets. The Seras tower is by no means a legitimate military target.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[bodypilot90 0]

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I don't care what it was. They fucked with the wrong country. Now they are running with tales between legs praying to Allah.. Dear Allah, don't let Uncle Sam drop a laser guided bomb up my ass!! Allah responds. Sorry fool.. I don't fuck with U.S. Marines...

Rhino

good post!!!!

Disarm by the 17th or DIE!!!!!!!

[billvon 3,090]

>Terrorism vs. legitimate military targets. The Seras tower is by no
>means a legitimate military target.

OK, I will change my example. They take out the Pentagon (again.) I hope people will see that we could have tried other solutions to prevent war in Iraq and the consequent increase in terrorism - and chose not to. That burning Pentagon will be one of the results. Our fault? No. Could we have taken a different path and avoided it? Yes.

[flyingferret 0]

Club replaced with country.

If you own a country, and you have a band cause a fire that burns down your place and kills a hundred people, it's probably not your fault; it was the band. Blame them. If you rebuild it without sprinklers and have the same band play, and overcrowd it to the same degree, and there's another fire, is it still not your fault? Will the excuse "it was all the band's fault" work the second (or even third) time that 100 people die in your country? Or at some point are you morally obligated to learn how to not have fires in your country?

Actually I think that is the point of going to war, to illustrate the concesquences of killing innocent people.

"If you want peace, prepare for war" Peace is the ultimate goal of war. Unfortunately, people dont just all get along, because some selfish bastard always thinks he can outsmart everyone because he is greedy.

I agree totally with Bill, although I think our ideas on the causes are 180 degrees off. The world has come to think that there is no retaliation for killing Americans because we care so much for the feelings of the third world. I think the perception is about to change, and I welcome it.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[PhreeZone 20]

It means nothing to us that we have desicrated their most holy lands by building military bases on them and said it was for their protection. To a Texan lets put it as we tear down the Alamo and put up a Mexican outpost. Would you be mad and willing to destroy it and the people that put it up?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bodypilot90 0]

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we would have been helping in Africa,

we do and the last time we told them the amount the piss ants whined that they wanted more!!! I say send them nothing till they stop whining and are thankful for what they have received.

[billvon 3,090]

>Actually I think that is the point of going to war, to illustrate the
>concesquences of killing innocent people.

Unfortunately, to extend the club analogy, we are preparing to kill Led Zeppelin to punish Great White. Will that teach the world that we will not tolerate irresponsible bands? Or that we just hate all 80's music?

>Peace is the ultimate goal of war.

No, winning is the ultimate goal of war. The above statement is the sort of nonsense pap that gets fed to civilians who are sorta wishy washy about war - "well, it's bad, but it's for a good cause and all." It is killing, plain and simple. It is the opposite of peace. George Orwell put it very plainly - we are headed towards a day when war is peace, freedom is slavery, lies are truth. The above statement is the beginning of that.

War is a tool that can be used for foreign policy, and that foreign policy can lead towards peace or war. Rarely, it can do both - but that's rare. Would you claim that the axis powers of WWII were after peace? Was Hussein after peace when he invaded Kuwait? Of course not. In both cases they just wanted to win, which is exactly what we will attempt to do.

[flyingferret 0]

I would like to see that succeed.... Alamo II me thinks
But I see your point. However here is the issue as I see it, and I don't know anyway to candycoat this or make it politically correct: These are some mean bastards. They hate us and feel it is an act of glory to die will trying to bring us to 'justice.' How do you deal with that? Do you really think that is all because we built bases around the world?

Personally, I could care less if we resorted to antique foreign policy, pulled all our 3rd-world bases and said "Let the french and the UN deal with them" They would still be killing each other like rats in a cage in 100 years. Because they are not peaceful people. They are very committed people that cannot compromise. Sooner or later with human nature, that will lead to killing.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[bodypilot90 0]

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10 billion is chump change to what we could do if we cared

it's us tax money not something you print up. if they we not screwing each other all the time they wouldn't have the aids problem they do.

[wmw999 2,563]

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pulled all our 3rd-world bases and said "Let the french and the UN deal with them"

If among the withdrawing we did was to withdraw from Israel, including aid and weapons, that would result in some serious short-term violence, but in the long run, either Israel would have to figure out how to live with the Arab world, or Israel would cease to exist, or the UN would be in charge of maintaining Israel's existence. It wouldn't happen immediately, but Israel is smaller than the rest of the Middle East.

Regardless, the US would be far less seen as a contributor to the giant hot spot in the middle east. Of course, then the Israelis and their friends would hate us. Whichever party did that would not get elected to the Presidency at the next election. Which is probably the main reason it will never happen.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,563]

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it's us tax money not something you print up.

Yeah, it's much more fun to spend our tax dollars blowing people away. It's all about showing that we're just the biggest badasses out there, right?

Some day we won't be.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)