billvon 3,121 #1 March 17, 2003 On Sunday seven skydivers went to a peace rally in Balboa Park in San Diego. (Well, all seven jump, but one does only tandems and one only jumps in the military.) Lisa (Skybytch) was planning to come but got a late start and couldn't make it on time. It had been raining all morning, but it cleared up just as we got there. There were around 5000 people there. No organized pro-war people this time; only two hecklers I could count. The rally started at 2pm with a bunch of speeches that most people couldn't hear - there seems to be a tradition of lousy audio systems for these events. There were about a dozen tents set up with people selling pins, shirts etc. At around 2:30 there was a march of about a mile through the park and on local streets before we returned to the rally. The mix of people was about the same as last time. with a lot of older marchers as well as the usual college students. Molly got a lot of questions on the flag she was carrying (NATO) - I guess not a lot of people have seen that flag. There were more signs than last time; I think people had more time to get their thoughts on paper this time, since it was announced two weeks in advance. Picture of five of us below. (Scratch that; exceeds upload limit.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #2 March 17, 2003 Here's that picture, with Keith, me, Molly, George and Judy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #3 March 17, 2003 You're a good man for standing up to your beliefs, billvon. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like you will be heard this time. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #4 March 17, 2003 BillVon: you really need to be careful about attending peace protests and appearing anti-american/anti-bush, your house could be vandalized, maybe even your rig, by one of our fellow "americans" in these trying times of these "ununited states of america" anything could happen.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #5 March 17, 2003 Hi Bill, Isn't it great to live in a country where you can express yourself? However, looks like the Saddam show is about over. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #6 March 17, 2003 You're joking right? I mean can't people see that being anti war or even anti Bush is not the same as being Anti American? Are you just kidding or has America really become the fourth Reich?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #7 March 17, 2003 > I mean can't people see that being anti war or even anti Bush is not > the same as being Anti American? In many cases, no. One heckler was yelling a steady stream of curses at the marchers, along the lines of "go back to Iraq, you Hussein supporters!" >Are you just kidding or has America really become the fourth Reich? Well, I don't think it's that bad, but I think people in the US like to take sides. We do it in sports, we do it in our politics - and we always seem to end up with two teams, two parties, two ideas being debated. As part of that, people want to believe that their side is "right" and the other side is "wrong." It's easier to believe the other side is wrong if you think they're all the same - all pro-war people want to kill arab babies, all anti-war people are communists etc. Even people here have expressed such opinions, and this forum (believe it or not) has much more intelligent conversation than your average website. Shades of gray tend to disappear during times of unrest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #8 March 17, 2003 QuoteYou're joking right? I mean can't people see that being anti war or even anti Bush is not the same as being Anti American? personally, i think so, but there are a select few who think differently obviously. or why was the ladies house in houston vandalized? why do i catch heat for not agreeing with the strategy in our current affairs? i support our military, ultimately i support our president, but if he does something i do not agree with, i will express that as well. funny how nobody cared about the "heat" clinton caught for getting a "hummer" under the oval office desk. QuoteAre you just kidding or has America really become the fourth Reich? "fourth reich" is a fairly strong statement. but i think our actions speak volumes of our contempt for the UN and other insugnificant nations. i'm already seeing posts here from individuals complaining about high fuel prices, i informed and warned about this situation months ago. all i can say, is you ain't seen nothing yet. more later....--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #9 March 17, 2003 I believe he was referring to this post. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #10 March 17, 2003 That is pretty scary. Think I'll be avoiding the US for a while, pity because its a great place to jump and theres some lovely people there, but with my complexion and an arabic name its just not worth the potential problems. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #11 March 17, 2003 righto! --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #12 March 17, 2003 Quote Lisa (Skybytch) was planning to come but got a late start and couldn't make it on time. Darn it. We pulled out of LV at 9:30; even if the traffic hadn't sucked for an hour (a couple miles...) just past Barstow I wouldn't have made it. I'll be there for the next one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #13 March 17, 2003 >I'll be there for the next one. Unfortunately I don't think there will be a next one; by the time another one gets organized the people who protesters were advocating for will already be dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #14 March 17, 2003 I was at a peace rally with my 2 children this past Saturday. I think it is important to teach kids that war is not the answer to the world's problems. Unfortunately, it looks like the US is going attack soon ... I wonder how many Iraqi children will die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #15 March 17, 2003 They're not children. They're "collateral". And they don't die. They're "damaged". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #16 March 17, 2003 the killing has begun already. literally thousands, the rate will be horrifying after the "body count" is finalized. isreal is prepping for iraqi strikes even as we speak. a young american female was killed by an isreali bulldozer knocking down a house on the west bank/gaza strip this morning, i think she was 23 years old. a group of young american citizens came over to try to protect the general population from potential genecide, she paid the ultimate price. she is resting with angels now.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #17 March 17, 2003 QuoteI wonder how many Iraqi children will die?I wonder how many have died at the hands of Saddam's torturers as a way to get their parents to talk?I wonder how many have died as a result of Saddam's refusal to meet the terms that would have lifted _UN_ sanctions?As Winston Churchill said, "War is horrible. But not as horrible as slavery."-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #18 March 17, 2003 Moral question... You can kill 100 children with your own hands so that 200 others will live. Or you can attempt to save all 300 some other way but knowing that you might fail. Which is the better choice? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #19 March 17, 2003 >I wonder how many Iraqi children will die? Iraqi deaths during the Gulf War: 100,000 ("official" Defense Intelligence Agency estimate) 35,000 (Kenneth Pollack estimate) Innocent deaths: 6000 (Red Crescent estimate) 5000 (Kenneth Pollack estimate) I would guess that very few Iraqi children died during the Gulf War since it was a war to oust invading troops from Kuwait. This time we're going to send 300-400 cruise missiles, each with 1000 pound warheads, into Baghdad, where ~5 million people live (including families.) Targets will be "military" but keep in mind that that includes phone company buildings, truckyards, power substations and railroad lines - things that regularly are around populous areas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #20 March 17, 2003 Bill -- You don't happen to know the number of deaths per year attributed to the UN sanctions do you? http://www-tech.mit.edu/V120/N25/col25smith.25c.html http://www.abettertoday.com/Sanctions%20on%20Iraq.htm http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/iraq99a.htm I guess you can see a lot of different numbers here, but my point is that it's possible that the war will bring with it huge casualties and deaths, but overall it -may- be a better thing.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #21 March 17, 2003 >You don't happen to know the number of deaths per year attributed >to the UN sanctions do you? Will post later tonight, but originally estimated in at least the hundreds of thousands at the start of sanctions. It dropped off dramatically once we allowed the oil-for-food program, to the point where average caloric intake per person per day is now above 2000. (i.e. food going in + farmland estimates.) There are still nasty shortages of medicines, power etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #22 March 18, 2003 Quote a young american female was killed by an isreali bulldozer knocking down a house on the west bank/gaza strip this morning, i think she was 23 years old. a group of young american citizens From the reports I've read/heard, it sounds like she wouldn't move out of the path of the oncoming tank. What a terrible way for a young life to end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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