War confusion

[blueshrew 0]

Let's assume that the US invasion of Iraq is necessary (not my opinion, but not the point of my post either, so please don't go there yet again)

The reasons were Iraq is a threat to the world, breaks UN resolutions and Iraqi people need liberation.
As opposed to e.g. North Korea Iraq was once a US ally, as was El Qaida. They were both provided with training and/or weapons. Both have turned on the US.
Now I am thinking Israel. US ally, but breaks UN resolutions, has been occupying more and more palestinian land every year since its establishment.

Since one by one all US allies seem to be turning against the US, is it not a bit conceivable that Israel might do so, too? It is, as far as I am concerned, and correct me if you are really positive of something else and not just repeating a TV channel or magazine, the only country in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons and not allow inspectors in.
There were loads of UN proposed actions against Israel, but each and every one of them was vetoed by the US. The US public is still under the impression that the Israeli government is the good guy. Sure there are the Palestinian suicide bombers, but there is also the Israeli terror army. The fact that they are dressed in camouflage uniforms does not make them any more noble or rightful, since they are still operating on occupied land.
A few years ago, before there were suicide bombers, the US still vetoed action to get Israeli troops out of the occupied regions.

So assuming that Iraqi people need liberation, well so do Palestinian people. In that issue I sure hope the plan for a separate Israel and Palestine in 2005 goes through.

As for Iraqi people needing liberation, I spent two weeks with an Iraqi around Christmas. He told me that the Iraqi people were finally starting to slowly pull out of the depression the Gulf war left them with. The war is putting that country back another 12 years, unless the US and UK have BIG plans to get them back on track.
Speaking from my knowledge of that culture, I am almost sure the Iraqi people did not want to get "liberated" by the US.

Which brings me to another issue, supposedly some CIA person was telling the Egyptian and Saudi government to become nervous, because the US is on the side of the people they fear most, which are their own people. Now that is yet another thing that really shows how the US has no idea about foreign politics or affairs, but is still willing to make such threats and take funny action. I believe that this is the "trait" that breeds terrorists against the US. Although in the case of Egypt, throwing over the current government would be a favor for islamic extremists.

To me it seems that the US government is very good at fixating the public on one current issue, and forgetting to mention ties and future outlooks, while also diverting away from similarities in other regions.

I just keep wondering if every US generation has to do a similar mistake, or will the next generation ever learn from history?
It's really a shame that Clinton was shunned and the Bushes are carried high. You surely do know the quiz with the three leaders to choose from; the one that was a faithful family man, didn't drink or smoke whatever turned out to be Hitler, which goes to show that private matters have no effect on the ability to lead a country well or badly. In the world's eyes, the US had a fantastic economy, the $ was pretty high and had good international ties and respect because of Clinton, then came Bush and ruined all that...
But the guy with the good propaganda has to be more qualified?

[falxori 0]

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Since one by one all US allies seem to be turning against the US, is it not a bit conceivable that Israel might do so, too?

you obviously have no clue what so ever on the nature of israel/US relationship.

what makes me even more sad is that people like you can only realize the nature of terrorism when it hits them in their own back yard.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[blueshrew 0]

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you obviously have no clue what so ever on the nature of israel/US relationship.

Maybe so, and it is a mystery to everyone that lives outside of the US. But times and people change...keep that in mind.

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what makes me even more sad is that people like you can only realize the nature of terrorism when it hits them in their own back yard.

There you are wrong, I doubt you know the meaning of terrorism better that I do. The only reason I am still alive, is because of the fact that school busses went out earlier than usual at the day of a bomb attack at a location that my bus drives through. It is VERY sad, that people like you think only the US was ever affected by terrorism.

[falxori 0]

first of all , i didn't mean you personally.
i don't know you nor your life story.

what i meant is that people look at things differently and in a VERY simplictic way, and here is an example:

awhile ago there was an incident of soldiers shooting at a civilian car, after the driver refused to stop.
or a civilian car, stopped and the people asked for help, when the soldiers came to help them it blew up killing several.

when the above happened in israel , the world was quick to place the blame.
sadly, the same have happened in Iraq to US soldiers, several were killed when offering help to a civilian car which exploded.

no one in the car looked any different from a civilian.

its much easier to fight an army with an army, you know who to shoot at.
when the other side is terrorism in civilian clothes, you can't wait until a person blow up next to you...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[blueshrew 0]

Thank you for clearing that up. I do agree with you about the confusion of civilian-looking people blowing up (though my post was on a slightly different topic). But you also have to see where this came from. I lived in the Middle East for 18 years, so am pretty familiar with the crisis there.
Israel was established by the UN at some point after WW2, basically turning one country into another and diminishing the identity of the first, and taking away the nationality of its people. Still there were designated areas for Palestinians and the newly declared Israelis, but I am sure you were already aware of that. Skipping a few years where the Arabs in the regions tried to take out Israel, I'll go to more current events and beliefs. The Arabs and other neighbors of Israel believe that Israel is trying to regain Jewish land which is from the Nile to the Euphrate (sp?) according to the Tora (sp?)/Old testament, which Israel has made them believe even more by occupying Sinai in Egypt, for instance, as well as attacking other neighbors.
But the thing leading to the suiciders today is the occupation of Palestinian designated land, followed by pleas for help from Palestinians, followed by UN resolutions and proposed help actions that were all vetoed by the US. Since all countries abide by the UN rules, no one was able to interfere since the US vetoed anything with the word Israel in it.
Now since the Palestinians see no hope in ever getting "civilized" help/justice from anyone, they take matters into their own hands.
The message in the Middle East at the time of the start of the suicide bombings was something to the effect of "We will terrorize every one of you for as long as it takes until you take your troops out of the occupied territories".
To me the answer to this crisis seems simple, if somehow Israel was forced to leave the occupied regions, the madness would stop.
When I lived there (that was before the suicide bombings started), the general consensus was that the US was vetoing every effort to help in order to give the region a good distraction and to prevent them from advancing and becoming strong, and possibly uniting against the US. Well as we have seen, that didn't protect the US, whether it was true or not, it just bread state-independant terrorist organizations, if that's in any way related.

[falxori 0]

ok , a short history lesson if you don't mind:

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Israel was established by the UN at some point after WW2, basically turning one country into another and diminishing the identity of the first, and taking away the nationality of its people.

wrong, the whole region was controlled by britain (what is now israel and jordan) and france (syria and lebanon).
after WW2 it was decided to divide the country into two, the jewish settlement agreed to this plan, and the arab didnt. they've attacked, and lost.
there was no palestine before 1967.
today "palestinians" were in fact jordanians and the west bank was jordaninan until 1967.

skipping, as you've said " few years where the Arabs in the regions tried to take out Israel", during 93-99 there was a peace process, which almost led to a palestinian state.
there was no israeli army, no martial law no NOTHING. most of the plaestinians were living under palestinian rule.
but when ever they didnt get all they wanted in negotiations terror would start.
they were talking and in the background arming themselves with wepaons they werent allowed to have.

and just so you know, my family is originally from Hebron, after 36-39 they had to leave there home and move to Tel-Aviv because of arab riots there.
terror is their favourite way for more than 100 years. before Isreal was even established.

the problem is their current leaders which have been terrorists for decades, see diplomacy as a weakness and use it to gain as much as they can while not giving up terror.

i'm sorry, i'm not willing to negotiate with someone who's way of thinking is "give me what i want or i'll blow up school busses.
you want to be a civilized country? start by being civilized.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[blueshrew 0]

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ok , a short history lesson if you don't mind:

And one also for you

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Israel was established by the UN at some point after WW2, basically turning one country into another and diminishing the identity of the first, and taking away the nationality of its people.

wrong, the whole region was controlled by britain (what is now israel and jordan) and france (syria and lebanon).

Not wrong, but inaccurate, Britain did control that region, but the division was a proposal from the UN, which was carried out by Britain. But the idea came from who?

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after WW2 it was decided to divide the country into two, the jewish settlement agreed to this plan, and the arab didnt. they've attacked, and lost.
there was no palestine before 1967.

Well then it is very strange that it exists on older maps, and in older documents. I think you are a bit confused, Palestine has ceased to exist long before 1967.

In any case, that was not the topic of my post, and thanx for hijacking it.
But if Israelis are more civilized than their counterparts, why don't they pull back from the Palestinian regions? I am sure you are aware of the immense difference of the maps from 1948 and today. An uniformed army does not void an intent of terrorism. But I really don't care to debate this.
What I am interested in though (earnestly), is what would your solution be to this crisis, since you come from (and still live in?) that region?

[falxori 0]

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But the idea came from who?

britain: in the Balfour declaration .November 2, 1917
long before WW2 and hitler's other idea for a solution.

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Well then it is very strange that it exists on older maps, and in older documents. I think you are a bit confused, Palestine has ceased to exist long before 1967.

no, the area was called palestine (historically named after another civilization that has nothing to do with todays arabs)
there was never a palestinian state instead of /next toisrael , besdie jordan which majority is "palestinians"
the fact is that they've become a "nation" due to historic events and becasue neither jordan nor egypt wanted these lands back.

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In any case, that was not the topic of my post, and thanx for hijacking it.

no one is forcing you to reply.
your post was full of historic mistakes.

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What I am interested in though (earnestly), is what would your solution be to this crisis, since you come from (and still live in?) that region?

my solution? 2 countries side by side.
and thats the accepted solution, the difference is where would the borders of these countries be .
but as long as their (EU funded) school books educate to hate, and people who incite terror walk free, this dream is still a dream.
and trust me when i tell you that most Israelis have no desire to be in Palestinian cities.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[blueshrew 0]

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But the idea came from who?

britain: in the Balfour declaration .November 2, 1917
long before WW2 and hitler's other idea for a solution.

OK, now you are diverting, the actual topic was the creation of Israel after WW2, see my and also your previous posts. So in that case you my friend are confused and also confusing.

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Well then it is very strange that it exists on older maps, and in older documents. I think you are a bit confused, Palestine has ceased to exist long before 1967.

no, the area was called palestine (historically named after another civilization that has nothing to do with todays arabs)
there was never a palestinian state instead of /next toisrael , besdie jordan which majority is "palestinians"
the fact is that they've become a "nation" due to historic events and becasue neither jordan nor egypt wanted these lands back.

So you are saying it was a no man's land? Isn't every piece of land someone's land? Very strange to have people with Palestinian IDs and such from that time then, hmmm.
I thought you just said Palestine never existed before 1967. Again you are confused and confusing.

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In any case, that was not the topic of my post, and thanx for hijacking it.

no one is forcing you to reply.
your post was full of historic mistakes.

No, you just keep changing what you are talking about and are a bit confused.

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What I am interested in though (earnestly), is what would your solution be to this crisis, since you come from (and still live in?) that region?

my solution? 2 countries side by side.
and thats the accepted solution, the difference is where would the borders of these countries be .

Well, at least we agree on one point. I am presuming the original Israeli/Palestinian borders would be a solution, but then you'd have to ask a lot of Israelis to move out of their homes, or live in Palestine.

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but as long as their (EU funded) school books educate to hate, and people who incite terror walk free, this dream is still a dream.

I am not sure whose books you are reffering to, but do I sense a dislike for Europeans, too?

For your info, most citizens of your neighboring countries don't hate Israelis as a people, they just hate your government and politics.
In fact, Israelis were and are still welcome e.g. in Egypt as long as they act civilized. I and many others met a lot of those people over the years. A government usually, ironic as it is, does not portray the beliefs of its people.

If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?

[Gawain 0]

I like the exchange between you and falxori but back to your original post, I disagree with the prospect you proposed. One reason: Israel is a democracy (parlimentary).

The people in Israel are not oppressed and fed continuous "BS" in order to preserve their liberties. Despite the spectre of terrorism and violence has not stopped the country from prospering, and that's a key point.

The PLO leadership has failed miserably. Was appointed and since the British gave up their mandate to Palestine the palestinians have continuously rejected every proposal for peace or co-existence. Israel did withdraw from the Sanai (1979 treaty w/Egypt), resolved disputes with Jordan (1994).

Your argument has merit, but I believe on the wrong basis.

As for James Woolsey suggesting that Arab neighbors of Iraq should be nervous, this is what he means (and the BBC also presented an essay to this affect too, here's the link).

Stability in the region can no longer be maintained by monarchic and despotic types of governments (yes, Iraq was a secular government too, but...). The US could have played a role in quashing the Iranian revolution in 1979, but did not. No one can afford to allow extremists that kind of power base.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[falxori 0]

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So you are saying it was a no man's land? Isn't every piece of land someone's land?

i'll state the simple facts:
1516-1918 Ottoman Empire (Turks)
1918-1948 British Mandate (after the whole region was divided by the frech/british Sikes-Picot agreement)

i'm not saying there weren't arabs here, but there was no palestine.
the closest thing there was is Jordan rulling of the west bank.

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Very strange to have people with Palestinian IDs and such from that time then, hmmm.

i'll be more than happy to see such an ID.
what you might have is Jordanian/british or ottoman.
(and my family have ottomanic doccuments showing ownership over property in Hebron)

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I am not sure whose books you are reffering to, but do I sense a dislike for Europeans, too?

i mean school text books, from which children absorb things.
what i meant is that the EU should check what its money is used for.
but if you insist, yes i have a problem getting lectured by nations who have conquered lands on the other side of the planet and robbed their national resources for decades (beligium in kongo, french in algeria, tunisia and so on)

i'm 25

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."