the truth about france, Chirac ignores global atrocities in power pursuit

[natiberger 0]

The fact that over 40 nations have join our cause is a clear indication that We are not the only one that think SH and his WMD must go.***

A country is the people, not just the government. And many times governments don't represent people. So when you say 'nations', it doesn't really mean 'nations', but 'dependent governments' that haven't many opcions since they're economic, politic, etc. threatened by your country. And don't forget that the majority of the people of those '40 nations that have joined your cause' actually haven't joined.

[TheAnvil 0]

You posts are interesting dude, but let me add a libertarian perspective. We've thought the UN to be a drain on the American tax-payers for years - and a large one at that.

The UN was losing credibility long before 9-11 and has continued to do so - not just for our 'friends' the French either. Anyone who gives credibility to an organization that puts Sudan, Syria, or Libya on a Human Rights Commission needs a psychiatric evaluation in a major way. Iraq and Iran are on their DISARMAMENT committee for goodness' sake. This organization is a joke. Its leadership is a joke. Its credibility is non-existent. And we give them taxpayer $$.

While I think it important to have a forum for international discussion, which the UN has provided for quite some time, I do believe that the UN has gone the way of the League of Nations. Its inability and lack of resolve to enforce its own resolutions are precursors of its demise.

Also, IRT a previous quote from you about the Palestinian situation, you've got it all wrong dude. The Palestinians WERE offered a separate state. They refused. Barak offered them 99% of what they were asking for - he was again refused. The Palestinian leadership[sic] do not desire any peace in which Israel continues to exist, ie. they do not desire peace at all. Is Israel non-culpable in all respects - absolutely not. However, they are FAR more amenable to a peaceful resolution than the Palestinians are. Israelis are not taught from birth to hate all Jews, that Jews eat Muslim-baby meat, and that martyrdom leads to a heavenly orgy. The facts are in, and the Palestinian leadership has been found lacking in the morals department.

Yours in suds,

THE ANVIL

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[bodypilot90 0]

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The UN was losing credibility long before 9-11 and has continued to do so - not just for our 'friends' the French either. Anyone who gives credibility to an organization that puts Sudan, Syria, or Libya on a Human Rights Commission needs a psychiatric evaluation in a major way. Iraq and Iran are on their DISARMAMENT committee for goodness' sake. This organization is a joke. Its leadership is a joke. Its credibility is non-existent. And we give them taxpayer $$.

sad but true, they (UN) are antiamerican and antisemitic. we MUST support the areas only democracy and long time friend

[TheAnvil 0]

I agree with you in the abstract, but don't think it entirely correct to characterize the UN as a whole as being anti-Semitic and/or anti-American. I think that the opinions of a great number of member states - and some darned vocal ones at that - might be characterized as such. The UN's current direction is a reflection of the opinions of these member states.

In contrast, I think one can correctly portray France as both anti-American and anti-Semitic. Anyone who has travelled over there or who reads the news with regularity can attest to that. They have the largest population of Muslim immigrants in Europe and by far the most leftist government (including Russia in my own opinion; that's up for a healthy debate in another thread, I'm sure). In addition to this, anyone with a passing familiarity with the French can attest to the increased animosity towards anything American these folks have been putting out since the Reagan years and even before.

The Muslim comment above might be construed as prejudiced, but I tend to take Ann Coulter's view in that regard (http://www.anncoulter.org if you're not familiar with her; good reading).

Cheers!

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gawain 0]

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The Muslim comment above might be construed as prejudiced, but I tend to take Ann Coulter's view in that regard (http://www.anncoulter.org if you're not familiar with her; good reading).

No to mention she cute !

Which article were you referencing?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Genie 0]

They could have just chose not to vote. The US is mad at France more than anyone, because they went out of their way to get other coutries to vote against us.

One could say, "well the US went to other countries to get them on board". That is true, but our object was to show those countries it was in their best interest. these are my views)***

Saw a thing on teletext news the other night that GWB got congress approval for $80 Billion. This is for the war and "to reward key allies" - yup i guess it was in their best interests to go along with the US !

Genie
Chris

[BBKid 0]

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The facts are in, and the Palestinian leadership has been found lacking in the morals department.

Two things I would add here: 1) restrictions on Palestinian movement mean that it is impossible for Arafat etc. to effectively lead or control their people, so they cannot be totally to blame for what suicide bombers (who are not in tune with legitimate Palestinian desires for land).

2) I am in no way condoning suicide bombers or their actions, but after seeing pictures taken during and after the Jenin massacre (carried out by a highly trained, highly funded and equipped professional army), I get mad when that bastard Sharon calls Palestinians evil. Which he has done on numerous occasions. I used to agreee with your comments, but then I studied the Middle East at University, and I can't believe how much Western governments lie about what goes on over there. The only difference between Palestinians and Israelis, as my lecturer put it, is that the Palestinians aren't as well-educated, they don't wear suits, and they don't speak English, so their message is not put across.

Nick
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"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[Michele 1]

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The only difference between Palestinians and Israelis, as my lecturer put it, is that the Palestinians aren't as well-educated, they don't wear suits, and they don't speak English, so their message is not put across.

I've heard many Palestinians speaking english. I have heard others who did not translated by interpretors. I've seen them in suits, and I have heard them propose ideas which are not uneducated in the least. I've heard their ideas, read their treatises, and understood their positions. Their message comes across...

But I think there is a difference your lecturer left out....they wear explosives for belts and run into crowds of students and into stores and restaurants, and blow themselves and those around them into bits. This is a fundamental difference - not simply in the actions, but in the mentality of some.

Just my .02...

Ciels-

Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[bmcd308 0]

>>But I think there is a difference your lecturer left out....they wear explosives for belts and run into crowds of students and into stores and restaurants, and blow themselves and those around them into bits. <<

Great point well made.

This thread may have more intelligent comments per post (on both sides) than any other political thread on dz.com.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[PhillyKev 0]

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http://www.anncoulter.org

Ok...I went to that site and it opened a blank grey page with "The Viet Cong Admiration Society" in the title bar???????????

[TheAnvil 0]

Dude, to get her views on Muslims and profiling and the like you'd have to go into her archives. I just sent the site where she posts her columns. She is interesting reading when it comes to politics.

Sorry if I misled you.

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[BBKid 0]

What I actually referred to was the politicians not speaking great English etc.

Of course no-one is going to say that suicide bombing should be excused - I certainly don't and neither does Arafat. Just don't forget that the Israeli army carries out the same or greater degree of destruction, except they do it with wire-guided missiles from helicopters and then call it a 'military operation'.

All they have to do is say they had evidence that there were terrorists within the buildings they level, and they get let off. THAT pisses me off.

Nick
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"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[TheAnvil 0]

I'm wondering how you come to those conclusions. The restrictions of which you speak were placed for reasons - primarily AFTER the start of the latest Intifada. Time and time again Arafat has shown that he DOES have influence with those who carry out suicide bombings. The Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is nothing but an instrument of Arafat. Hezbollah respects his opinion (I know that they do lots of charitable work as well; hence their continued popularity among the common Palestinians) and often agrees to his wishes, though not always. Even with the restrictions you mentioned, Palestinian radio stations broadcast their messages of hate to the masses. Arafat and his junta have communications to the outside world, and therefore DO have control.

With regards to the Jenin 'massacre' I think you might want to do a bit of research on that. Jenin is NOT a refugee camp or village as anyone whose seen photos knows and was built primarily with US $. The Palestinian claims of hundreds of deaths was proven to be preposterous. I believe the end toll was somewhere between 50 and 60 confirmed dead. I believe the Israelis lost 33 soldiers.

With regards to the education of the average Palestinian, you are again incorrect. I've travelled extensively over there and Palestinians DO wear suits, DO speak English, and DO get their message across to many. It is their intransigence on the continued existence of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital, their continued association with terrorism, their hate filled propaganda, and their refusal to negotiate seriously that dilutes the effectivess of their message. That, and the fact that their message is revolting to most people.

Palestinians themselves are not intrinsically evil and Sharon has no right to say that they are. Israelis are ALSO not intrinsically evil and Palestinian radio stations have no right to broadcast that.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[BBKid 0]

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With regards to the Jenin 'massacre' I think you might want to do a bit of research on that. Jenin is NOT a refugee camp or village as anyone whose seen photos knows and was built primarily with US $. The Palestinian claims of hundreds of deaths was proven to be preposterous. I believe the end toll was somewhere between 50 and 60 confirmed dead. I believe the Israelis lost 33 soldiers.

I don't think I anywhere claimed that Jenin was a village or refugee site, I'm sorry if that was the impression you got. As for disproving the claims about the numbers of dead, I did not mention the hundreds of dead either (I'll have to check, perhaps I got carried away), but simply cited the term which was commonly used to refer to the incident under discussion. Nevertheless, I stand by my point about teerorist assertions not being proved by the Israelis. Yes, there probably were terrorists within the area that was attacked, but the troops didn't exactly go out of their way to avoid killing civilians. I know suicide bombers actively try to kill civilians, but to respond with a like action is simply childish and deplorable.

I agree that a change of negitiation tactic is necessary, but why would the Palestinians feel impelled to change their leadership structure when a man they (and many across the world) feel is a direct and indirect mass-murderer of their people is the one asking them to do so?

As regards the education point, I was simly repeating a point that was made to me about the political representation of the Palestinians in the West, i.e. Arafat not speaking good English, whereas many Israeli ministers have been educated in the UK and US. Maybe you receive different images in different parts of the world, but over here the representation is that Arafat always wears his military garb and meets with his advisors etc. in small, delapidated conference rooms, thus giving the impression that he, and by association, Palestinians are somehow 'less-civilised' than the Israelis who have their parliament building, Saville Row suits and American accents ready for the cameras. You and I both know that a great number of Palestinians speak excellent English, and are well-educated and truly desire peace.

I cannot attest to radio broadcast and the like as I have never visited the region, so I concede the point there, as well as the Al Aqsa Brigade (who I momentarily forgot about), although I wouldn't go as far as to say they are under Arafat's direct control, which I inferred from your post.

Hezbolla, whilst it does conduct its operations against Israel, is in my opinion more closely associated with the Israel-Lebanon conflict than the Israel-Palestine conflict, although the occupation of Lebanon by Israel was connected to the attempted capture of leading members of the PLO.

The point I make about restrictions is that you can't say "it's in their hands now", when you control the movement of individuals and information from a leading authority at any time, either before or after an intifada. I must also say that communication in no way equals control, it equals requests, orders even, but cannot force people to do anything, so I do still feel that in may ways Arafat has his hands tied.

I won't go into the subject of the existence of Israel here, as it's far too complex to even begin debating, but I would say that it is important to distinguish between those ordinary people on both sides who want to be able to go to work unencumbered and to live peacefully with their families, and those who simply want to utterly destroy the others (and there are many such people on both sides).

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[TheAnvil 0]

The Palestinians SHOULDN'T change their leadership because Sharon says so. They should do so because their current leader was directly involved in the assasination of the US Charge d'Affairs of Sudan, the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympics in Munich, and countless other terrorist acts. There is no comparision between the most militant of the Likud and Arafat. From all reports (from British, German, and US sources) I've read the Palestinian people really lack any viable mechanism with which to change their 'leadership' because the PA is an autocracy.

Civilian casualties in any war are unavoidable. I do not understand your comment about Israeli troops going out of their way to avoid killing civilians. I saw no video indicating anything of the sort, and refuse to believe those who claimed a 'massacre of hundreds and possibly thousands' occurred when in reality only 50-60 were killed. Since 33 Israeli troops were killed as well, it seems odd to me that you would make such a comment.

I also disagree with you about control. Neither Blair nor Bush are ever out in the street directly involved with operations. Nor would you find the mayor of a major city doing so. They govern and operate through communications - not their direct physical presence or involvement. Arafat has communications - therefore he is still in control.

With regards to political representation in the West I also disagree. At San Diego St. there were posters splattered across campus portraying Palestinian baby meat as kosher food. Palestinian groups lobbied HARD during the 2002 election cycle for Cynthia McKinney(a racist from GA) and several other candidates. McKinney was called 'the strategic choice for Palestine in the US congress' by several Middle Eastern supporters. Prof. Sami Al-arian and a multitude of other professors of Middle Eastern studies here in the US (though not all) frequently lecture and lend their support to Palestinians. Several other examples come to mind - far too many to post or retype. My point is that their message is out there and continues to be broadcast. It's their modus operandi and hateful rhetoric that turn most Westerners against them.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[natiberger 0]

Our troops are there to distroy WMD

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If we talk about WMD:

* Your country is dropping on Iraq missiles with impoverished uranium or pumps of
cluster - arms that by their real effect harm the civil population violating the agreements of Geneva.

* Due to the dust and toxic substances that were released in the atmosphere after the bombings on Iraq in 1991, the cancer has increased a 300% and 1.700.000 children died in the last decade.

* Your country also has WMD, and was the only country that has used atomic bombs against humans. And twice.

And your country (Bush mainly) is considered by over 80% of world population a threaten for the world peace. So, shouldn't have started by desarming yourselves?

and SH and his thugs.

If bringing democracy to Irak is what you mean, it's absurd to think that democracy can be imposed by force killing Irak people. It has to be born inside the country. By the way, the role of your country against dictatorships hasn't always been 'against',
many countries have passed through as horrible dictatorships as this one, and have been supported and financed by your country. (my country is one of them)

To destroy training camps for terrorist.

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Do you think with a war you'll resolve the problem of terrorism? It's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.... isn't it better to stop giving them reasons (may be the imperial actions). You can kill Osama, Saddam, Al Quaeda, etc.; destroy their weapons but you won't kill the anger of the rest of the people who can continue with Osama's job. (And will increse with every war to fight terrorism)

To liberate the Iraqi people

I guess Iraki people never asked to be liberated by your country. Never thanked for the presence of your troops (and it's very understandable). And never received your troops with claps and flowers (as your government has planned)

[bodypilot90 0]

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The facts are in, and the Palestinian leadership has been found lacking in the morals department.

Sad but true

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Two things I would add here: 1) restrictions on Palestinian movement mean that it is impossible for Arafat etc. to effectively lead or control their people,

This is where we have a problem. I believe they are in control and are calling the shots.

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so they cannot be totally to blame for what suicide bombers

yes they can by providing the groups with money and arms

(who are not in tune with legitimate Palestinian desires for land).

They were offered and as always turned it down. They only seek to distroy israel.

Quote

2) I am in no way condoning suicide bombers or their actions, but after seeing pictures taken during and after the Jenin massacre (carried out by a highly trained, highly funded and equipped professional army),

Have you seen the the result of a car bombing, have you been there up close. I have.

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I get mad when that bastard Sharon calls Palestinians evil. Which he has done on numerous occasions. I used to agree with your comments, but then I studied the Middle East at University,

of course all you learned was truthful and unbiased. Sure sounds like it to me. (not a attack on you but the system you are learning under)

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and I can't believe how much Western governments lie about what goes on over there.

once again see above.

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The only difference between Palestinians and Israelis, as my lecturer put it, is that the Palestinians aren't as well-educated, they don't wear suits, and they don't speak English, so their message is not put across.

Thier bombings say it all.

[Snowflake 0]

You've changed my mind the US is Morally proper country that would never do evil. All we want is to help the world,but most of the rest of the world is evil (we don't know why, but they are). So now it falls upon us to free the world from their dictators that we helped put into power. I'm so glad to be in a country that has never tried to commit genocide excpt for the American Indians. We've never sat by and let people be slaughtered by governments or rebels we've helped like in El Salvador or Columbia. We are right because we're American. I'm so glad you've cleared all this up for me I'll sleep much better at night

[PhillyKev 0]

It's about time you got in line and became a true patriotic American.

[Snowflake 0]

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It's about time you got in line and became a true patriotic American.

Don't tell but it's an act ever since the unpatriot actII I've been hearing clicks on the phone plus I got coach jumps from a guy named Omar so I'm trying to create a new image.....is it working?

[BBKid 0]

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Have you seen the the result of a car bombing, have you been there up close. I have.

Yeah, me too - it sure isn't pretty. I've also seen the up-close result of several other IRA bombs, from Warrington to Manchester, and others.

I think quite a few people here may be starting to get the wrong idea about me. I have never, and will never condone the actions of terrorists. I don't have a pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli bent either.

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the Likud party and Ariel Sharon, but then I also despise George Bush and Tony Blair (not for reasons pertaining to this war or the Middle Eastern situation), but it doesn't mean I am anti-British or anti-American. I also know that the majority of what is presented to me by my government as a private citizen is heavily weighted to say the least, and I accept that the circumstances can vary with time and location.

One important point: the education I have received has at all times been fair to both sides and has presented me with numerous sources from which I was free to make up my own mind about my opinions on the subject, and I want to make clear that my University has no agenda on this issue, other than educating people on a subject which is widely misunderstood. If such a reputation were to spread it could be severely damaging, so I wanted to highlight this point.

As with most issues that promote lengthy discussion, you tend to find people with strong-held convictions, so it would be unwise and unfair for me to try to persuade people round to my way of thinking. That said, I am comfortable enough in my ignorance to change my opinions, should I feel sufficient evidence has been presented. I mean no offence to anyone posting here, but I simply haven't seen such evidence, other than personal opinions. Likewise, I take no offence from any of you who do not share my opinions, or even think I am deeply delusional. I simply present one individual's point of view, providing statements as a source of information (either valued or discounted), rather than as a stick to beat people with (to quote Wendy W).

It also doesn't help that in forums such as these it is hard to get an idea of someone's personality - since I wouldn't have to clarify myself so much if I was discussing it in face-to-face.

Therefore, I'm going to return to the promise I made myself about a month ago, and stay away from all political forums, since they have a habit of drawing you in and taking over what should be time spent enjoying the transfer of information about my favourite sport.

I wish you all peace, good luck, blue skies and happy futures.

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Quote

It's about time you got in line and became a true patriotic American.

Don't tell but it's an act ever since the unpatriot actII I've been hearing clicks on the phone plus I got coach jumps from a guy named Omar so I'm trying to create a new image.....is it working?

utshay upay. eythay illway earhay ouyay

[bodypilot90 0]

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I'm so glad you've cleared all this up for me I'll sleep much better at night

Glad to clear it all up. I can help you vote next time if you want to. Always glad to help out!!!