BadDog 0 #26 April 9, 2003 Quote Quote Quote Communism - everyone is entitled to "their share" of wealth. Is this like a birthright? They get a share simply because they are there regardless of their contribution to society? I have an idea, I'll quit work today and you send me half your paycheck! I'll stay at the dz and jump with your money. Sound good? Let me know and I will send you my mailing address. "...to each according to their need...." I need it worse than you, so start licking the stamps. ...sounds like the unemplyment insurance system in canada... Sounds like alimony to me.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kingbunky 3 #27 April 10, 2003 Quote Sounds like alimony to me.............. i wouldn't know, i get child support from the ex, i don't pay it! "Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart." MB4252 TDS699 killing threads since 2001 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #28 April 10, 2003 "I think getting Iraqi oil production going again will bring the biggest thing needed to do all of the above - money." I agree, but I am realistic enough to realise that the money, in immediate terms, will have to come from us, you and me, our governments, the UN etc. In 98-99 the Iraqis were struggling to sustain themselves under the oil for food programme. Now the regime has essentially been neutered, in terms of licensing oil production, all bets are off. There will have to be a certain amount of reinstatement of facilities, and whole new debacle over who exploits which field, runs pipelines, refineries (you can't just take oil out of the ground and put it into tankers or pipelines, it invariably requires cleaning up) etc. Whilst all this arguing will be going on, the Iraqis will be without a means of generating money. Take for example a main oil line export pump station, how long do you think it takes to get one from scratch? 1 month?, 2 months?, more likely its closer to 2 years. Even once all the licensing and repair wrangles are ironed out, and production does indeed start to dribble though again, there's no guarantee that the money will go where it is needed. Take for example Nigeria, its ostensibly an oil rich state, but I've seen some shocking poverty and deprivation there. Add to the mix the fact that a much of the north of Iraq, where a lot of the oil actually is, is now under Kurdish control. Is there any guarantee that the Kurds will want to give this up to a people who have been wailing on them for 30 years? Call me cynical, but I don't see a quick fix and a promotion to a Saudi Arabian style state for a good 5-10 years. Meantime, its the "little people" that will continue to suffer.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marz 0 #29 April 10, 2003 Quote Once Iraq is stabilized, one of the first priorities should be to get the oil flowing and start providing for the citizens. Tear down all of the palaces with the gold plated sinks and other examples of indulgence and make sure no one in Iraq goes to sleep hungry or has to beg for water in the street. Ok, so I don't post here often, but this one, i gotta reply to. You're right people. Oil flowing is a marvelous thing, it's great and it generates profits. But don't you believe FOR A MINUTE that Joe Average Iraqi citizen is going to benefit from it! How do I know this? Because my lovely wife was born and raised in Venezuela, a country who boasts the second largest oil reserves in the world (and no, it's not in the middle east!) I spent some time there, and studied the place..... The oil business is state-owned and represents 80% of the country's GNP. the other 20% is from gold, magnesium and bauxite imports. However, 80% of the population live in conditions that would make you squirm. Why? because 20% of the population runs the business and what should go the governement und be redistributed ends up in some manager's pocket. If you want to see what oil can do to a "democratic" country, go check it out. See how you feel looking at multi-million dollar homes next to tin shack where people steal electricity from power lines. Oh, and they have a democratically elected president in that coutry that is attempting to change all of that, and fired most of the managers of the PDVSA, the oil company. What happened? those guys went to Daddy Bush, and whined, and next thing you know, the country is paralysed in a general strike, run by the upper class (and openly suppiorted by the US), and a coup is set up against Chavez. Not accurately televised by the way since two of the three national TV stations and three of the four papers are owned by the same family, who opposes a leader who's trying to take their cake to share it with those who might need a little piece of it. So have fun in Iraq boys. Give 'em democraty, give 'em freedom and promise them wealth and happiness. Under Saddam, they were miserable and silent. now, they're gonna be miserable, occupied by a foreing country and have a voice... I let's see what CNN shithead Aaron Brown has to say about that.... And by the way, I'm on the edge of my seat!!!! Where the hell is our boy Saddam? Have we found any weapons of mass destruction yet? Aw.... come on!!!! SHow me!!!! Show meeeeeee!!!!!! Christmas is too far away!!!!! _________________________________________ Did I just kill another thread? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 April 10, 2003 QuoteSo have fun in Iraq boys. Give 'em democraty, give 'em freedom and promise them wealth and happiness. Under Saddam, they were miserable and silent. now, they're gonna be miserable, occupied by a foreing country and have a voice... Good point. Anyone here remember the Shaw of Iran. He was our buddy, he was reforming Iran, the country was progressing, becoming modern, educated, industrialized. The people were free to worship how they wanted. Then a bunch of radical militants got upset because they saw a girls ankle and decided it was time to put a stop to all that thinking for yourselves and bammo...you have the Ayatolla. Yes, Saddam is gone, yes, we'll facilitate a democratic leadership change, no, it won't last. Democracy and freedom are cultural ideals. In the west, we see the path to freedom is to uphold the rights of each individual, even those in the minority so that everyone has an equal chance. That concept just doesn't exist in that part of the world. Yes, they want freedom, for themselves, but the general attitude is that the path to freedom is to become top dog and repress those who may threaten the way you want to live (a trait I've unfortunately seen growing here as well). That's the natural human way to do it. You have to fight your instincts to dominate everyone else and empathize with those who are different than you. And then you must be constantly vigilant against slipping back to the "norm" of just wanting what's best for yourself and screwing everyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
