Traitors vs. Patriots

[jraf 0]

So many heated threads regarding what is considered good or bad citizenship (or treason by some jarheads). So many discussions about right or wrong attitudes towards the last conflict. Someone just called the Dixie Chicks traitors. I did not know that criticizing my government was treason. Perhaps the journalists who uncovered Watergate were traitors too - they are still alive let's hang them high.

The Iraqui war was a large expenditure that among others I paid for. Moved masses of humans and equipment from one part of the world for what purpose? Is it unpatriotic to question the very shady motives of this operation?

Why do people insist on blindly accepting what the government does? I support the Bush administration in most areas, but definitely was against the war. Why do people insist that controlling my government by questioning it's moves is unpatriotic. Or maby it's unpatriotic to let it do what it wants?

Who is the better citizen - the critical or the blind follower? Nazi Germany was full of blind followers just waiting to try out their new weapons and so full of themselves. While far from comparing our nation to that, I ask if such behavior on our part might not lead us to a totalitarian state?

Why should I support my government and it's armed forces in a quest I believe to be wrong?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[Guest]

I've been waiting for this one. How nice of you to compare the US intervention in Iraq to Nazi Germany. I'm sure our troops just can't wait to round up all the Jews in Iraq and ship them to Buchenwald.

As far as name-calling goes, there is plenty to go around. Ted Turner has just denounced Rupert Murdoch (owner of Fox News) as a "warmonger". Guess that's because Rupert didn't have Peter "Baby Milk Plant" Arnett on his staff.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[gemini 0]

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The Iraqui war was a large expenditure that among others I paid for.

Saykiewicz in order to back up what you believe in, stop paying your taxes. That'll show them....

How are things in Orlando?

Jim

Blue skies,

Jim

[jraf 0]

Perhaps instead of Buchenwald a few Arabs sent to Guantanamo will suffice. Or are you trying to tell me that the United States is not running a concentration camp out there?

I am very angry at what these guys did to us, but if we are calling things by their name then what do you call the nice little resort at Guantanamo? It definitely is against the Geneva convention.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[elephantman 0]

Y'all should read the text of the "Patriot Act" and then be afraid, be very afraid. Send a check to the ACLU after you calm down. Then read the new law again and make sure you understand what is at stake. YOUR FREEDOM.

[elephantman 0]

Oh, ya, if Kristen doesn't want to marry you, I know someone who might...

[jraf 0]

I do support the ACLU. My freedom is endangered bu the latest terrorism induced hysteria. Sad.

I also do pay my taxes as aside from the military they support all other expenses the Government has - inclidung the presidential limousine (bad taste but probably needed)

Jim: yes, Saykiewitz is my last name. What about it?

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[tigra 0]

Funny, that topic just came up in the office, because someone noticed I was playing the Dixie Chics at a very low volume. When did listening to music become a political statement?

There's a wierd vibe going on in this country right now. I firmly believe that questioning and even criticizing our government is good, and in fact PATRIOTIC. Isn't that part of what our country is based on?? Freedom of speech, freedom of expression?

Someone here just said, "If people don't like it here, they should just leave." WTF is that?? If you don't like what you see happening with this government, maybe you should get a little more vocal and a little more involved and work for positive change. Its OUR country, right? By the People, For the People?

end of rant......

I've tried really hard not to get drawn in.....

maura

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Before this thread gets ugly and thrown in the recycle bin, I would just like to give my opinion. I am all about free speach and the right to have a contrary opinion, but where exactly in the job description of "singer" or "entertainer" does it state that you have the right to spout your, sometimes skewed or flawed, opinion on the people who are there to hear you do your job, which is to say "sing" or "entertain." A government degree is certainly not a prerequisite to play a guitar and skwawk, therefore what gives that person a right to pontificate on political matters. I don't need to hear your sometimes pathetic views on politics or PETA; I am there to hear you sing, so STFU and do it.

Chuck

[TheAnvil 0]

Nope dude. Gitmo is NOT against the Geneva Convention. Under no circumstances did any of the prisoners meet the requirements of Article 4.

And comparing Guantanamo's detention facility to a concentration camp is utterly ludicrous. I've seen concentration camps - Dachau, Auschwitz, et al and Gitmo has no resemblance. There are no furnaces or working parties, medical care is rendered, there are no murders of prisoners, and open prayer is allowed.

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Luv2Fall 0]

Now that's what I'm talking about.

[jraf 0]

Entertainers are humans too, they are citizens as all of us and they too have the right to express their opinion Yes more people hear them, but perhaps they are expressing an opinion that is not unpopular?

Being critical of the govenment is part of democracy. Being critical in public is part of democracy. Being able to tell the world that we disagree with our government is what makes us different from such countries as Iraq.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jfields 0]

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where exactly in the job description of "singer" or "entertainer" does it state that you have the right to spout your, sometimes skewed or flawed, opinion on the people who are there to hear you do your job

It doesn't. But that right is guaranteed by their citizenship, not their job. Of course, you already know that.

The issue isn't rights or job descriptions, but basic common sense. She showed a major lack of it with her comments. While she had the right to open her mouth and make an idiot of herself, the smart thing to do would have been to skip it.

I agree with you Chuck, that entertainers need to get off their soapboxes when it comes to political issues. They aren't more educated than we are about them. Their opinions don't matter any more. The arrogance of their preaching issues at their audience is irritating.

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I am there to hear you sing, so STFU and do it.

Yup. That is exactly right.

[jraf 0]

I would like to remind you what a concentration camp is. It actually all started with the British - Boer war in 1899.

A concentration camp is not necessarily a site for mass exterminaton. I am myself not sure what my oppinion on Guantanamo is, aside the fact that I think it is a can of worms waiting to be opened. We, the United State are running a concentration camp though, unless you can tell me under what law and for how long they will be kept there and what in particular are they charged with and when they will stand trial. It definitely ain't Club Med.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[BikerBabe 0]

At the risk of incurring wrath, I'll post this. It's long, so I'll just post the link. He makes a lot of really good points, so please, just read the article before judging based on the speaker.

http://www.sunspot.net/bal-op.robbins20apr20.story

I'm not really "anti-war" anymore, but I am "anti-giving-up-freedom".

Yes, radio stations as privat enterprises have the right to not play the Dixie Chicks. But as far as I'm concerned, it's going way too far when elemetary school teachers tell their students not to listen, or call certain people who are exercising their rights "un-American."

ah, just read the speech. Here's an excerpt:

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It doesn't take much to shift the tide. My 11-year-old nephew, mentioned earlier, a shy kid who never talks in class, stood up to his history teacher who was questioning Susan's patriotism. "That's my aunt you're talking about. Stop it!" And the stunned teacher backtracked and began stammering compliments in embarrassment.

Go kid!

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Zennie 0]

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what gives that person a right to pontificate on political matters

A microphone.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[DYEVOUT 0]

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I am there to hear you sing, so STFU and do it.

I couldn't agree more, Chuck. The really interesting part is that when you hear these singers and Hollywood types spouting their rhetoric, you must consider that huge percentage of this crowd has a maximum of a high school education, cannot maintain a relationship for more than a couple of years, and has serious substance abuse issues.

In other words - the vast majority of these overpaid idiots have proven that they can't control their lives, but they are more than willing to help you live yours.

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[TheAnvil 0]

I just learned something about the term concentration camp. Seems you are right, though the current understanding of most with regards to its use in the vernacular probably stems from the German/Cambodian models, I'd wager. That's where I was coming from.

Yep, you're right though. Per the encycolopedic definition it is a concentration camp. Can of worms - yep. I don't think these people have a right to trial under the US judicial system as they aren't US citizens and committed no crimes on US soil. However, I also don't think they should ever be let loose, though I see no legal justification for doing such a think.

An interesting conundrum. I don't know much about international law other than easy stuff like the difference betwn innocent and transit passage of an archipelagic strait, demarcation lines, mining of trade routes, and the like. T'will be interesting to see how this plays out. One thing is for sure -Ramsay Clarke will make an idiot of himself again, guaranteed.

Suds,

Vinny

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Zennie 0]

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huge percentage of this crowd has a maximum of a high school education

Musicians, yeah I'd agree. Actors/actresses seem to mostly have a college level degree.

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cannot maintain a relationship for more than a couple of years

Years? You're being awfully generous there. I was thinking more along the line of weeks.

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has serious substance abuse issues

I think I have a better grasp of where this comes from having lived with a clinical Narcissist (no joke) for 10 years.

Step back and think about these people's experience for a bit. Show business is very much an "it's all about me" business. These people are used to being fawned over and catered to and basically being the center of the universe. So you wind up with a huge collection of people who have an inflated sense of self-importance.

Put two of them together in a relationship where each has top be the center of attention and you see how they have such short-lived relationships.

I would note that Mel Gibson seems to have avoided all that. He's still married to his original wife and they have like 6 kids. So it is possible to stay centered... but maybe youhave to be Australian to do it.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[sinker 0]

Wait a second... aren't those who call you and others like you also exersizing their free speech as well?

The Dixie Chicks have just as much right as anyone to say what they did. AND, the rights of other free people are being exersized when they call the chicks traitors. The chicks may not in fact BE traitors, but that's another matter. AND it is the rights of other free people to boycott the chicks music. And to smash it. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I for one DO NOT trust everything our government does. My dad was in the military and was asked to do some awful things for God and Country. But on the other hand, not everything the Government does is wrong. As with most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The only problem I've ever had with what you, Jraf, or some others have said is the calloused disrespect you've shown about people who have lost their lives serving their country. I've never called you a traitor or claimed you were unpatriotic. Sure, you have the right to say what you want about this matter. It is quite another thing entirely to be able to say the respectful thing, the tactful thing. That is something that you have not shown an ability to do. And for that you have my contempt.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

Mel Gibson has succeeded at it because he is a devout Catholic (his words, not mine).

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Who is "we?" The fat pig in the band and the mouse in her pocket? I don't care to hear her mindless drivel if I am there for a concert. Now, if she were an acquaintance of mine, then I might want to hear her view on a subject. Spouting a bunch of shit on stage "just because you have a captive audience" is horse-shit. Shut up and sing, biotch.

[Guest]

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One thing is for sure -Ramsay Clarke will make an idiot of himself again, guaranteed.

Suds,

Vinny

He's a jackass, it's true, but he has done some right and good. He defended the Branch Davidians.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[TheAnvil 0]

Michael, you've hit upon a good point. It always amazes me that many leftists cower under the 'I was exercising my freedom of speech' mantra whenever someone else exercises their own freedom of speech to criticize them. It seems these loud mouths on the left are so arrogant and self righteous that they can't fathom that the other person has a problem with their actions/statements/opinions. They therefore incorrectly conclude that the person has a problem with Freedom of Speech.

egg rolls,

Vinny

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,111]

>but where exactly in the job description of "singer" or "entertainer"
> does it state that you have the right to spout your, sometimes
> skewed or flawed, opinion on the people who are there to hear you
> do your job, which is to say "sing" or "entertain."

Same reason anyone else is free to spout off. Heck, people _pay_ to hear Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern spout off. Listeners have the right to not listen, of course. If you're an entertainer and no one listens to you then you go out of business, so the problem fixes itself.