Joyner 0 #1 April 30, 2003 How many low turn injuries and deaths will it take before USPA slaps down rules on experience / training vs. cannopy type / size? I've been reading reports and I am horrified by the numbers! Why haven't USPA reacted? Why do they just accept all these deaths? I won't get into the actual technicalities of the rules needed. I think that topic has been beaten to death. I can just say that there are examples (Sweden for one), were rules seems to have had an apparent effect in getting injuries and deaths down! Has the time for rules come even to the US? I know the topic isn't easy. But I still ask the question. How much of your individual freedom are you willing to sacrifice for the better of the larger group? I think we all agree we can only benefit from a decrease in the number of deaths and injuries in our sport. Isn't it time to let go of some of that personal freedom, for the good of the team? Shit I come across as a complete communist, but I just hate reading about low turn deaths every other weekend! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #2 April 30, 2003 you may want to read "dead man talking" in the safety & training forum, it is all about this subject. Edit: so I was completely wrong, it is:"talking to a dead man" in General Skydiving Discussions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #3 April 30, 2003 more rules wouldn't help i think....... you'd still have peole hooking it in , but just under lower wingloaded anopies...... stiil kill ya just the same............ maybe comon sence would be better...... ______________________________________ "i have no reader's digest version" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #4 April 30, 2003 QuoteI know the topic isn't easy. Of course it isn't easy. That's why it keeps coming up in the topical forums. In fact, it it being argued right now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #5 April 30, 2003 Comon sence HASN'T worked so far! Look at the numbers! People will still hook in YES. But will so many? Rules seems to have worked in Sweden. I won't go as far as saing that they have worked. But fact is that we havn't had a single fatality due to low turns in 3 years and 400 000 jumps. (I don't have older stats than that). These rules are accepted and well thought of. I think that speeks for it self! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #6 April 30, 2003 >you'd still have peole hooking it in , but just under lower wingloaded anopies...... stiil kill ya just the same I beg to differ. I've seen a lot of people survive doing stupid stuff under large canopies, stuff that would have killed them under a 1.8 to 1 canopy. You can kill yourself under any canopy, but it's a lot easier to do so under a small canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #7 April 30, 2003 Quote I've been reading reports and I am horrified by the numbers! Why haven't USPA reacted? Why do they just accept all these deaths? I'm still waiting for numbers that show "the sky is falling!!" as posts like this (and others) that call for immediate regulation to save us from ourselves is required at all. from everything i've seen the fatalities ratio / number of jumps made per year world wide is pretty insignificant. not to imply that any single life is insignificant, just pointing out that we arent about to run out of skydivers anytime soon at the current rates, and therefore more restrictive regulation isnt always the best answer to such concerns. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #8 April 30, 2003 This is an issue I battle with a lot... Out of all the stupid shit it's the canopy issues that seem to be hurting the most... Why do people not take their time in advancing in this sport, why are some people so eager to be "the shit" today even though they started skydivng yesterday? People wanting to wear camera's right off of AFF, people wanting to do freefly or a big way on jump less than 30 when they can't even do a two way belly dive, people eager to do high performance landings? There is other stupid shit I see all the time as well. Some of us have mega mega egos... Myself included. How do you put an ego in check? I have talked to "dangerous" people before... They say the right things then go right back to their dangerous habits. I've seen people grounded and they just relocate. I see these so called dangerous people never get hurt while a cautious jumper hurts themselves for one stupid reason while said dangerous peron does dangerous things on every jump. Last sentance confusing? Because there is no answer right now to this question... Regulate or not? To what extreme do we regulate? Definately don't want to turn this sport into a non fun having event... and yet we don't want to loose too many fellow skydivers to the point where we have no choice but to regulate because... I just try my best to educate at the DZ... That's all I can do for now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #9 April 30, 2003 Quote I'm still waiting for numbers that show "the sky is falling!!" as posts like this (and others) that call for immediate regulation to save us from ourselves is required at all. from everything i've seen the fatalities ratio / number of jumps made per year world wide is pretty insignificant. When divided by the number of jumps YES! I would say they are very similar. But one very important difference is that in the US you do enough jumps every year to be able to analyze the fatality stats. In Sweden we have one fatality every to every other year on average. It hard to analyze those numbers since so much changes over the years (equipment, type of jumping and so on). But when you have 20-30 deaths every year you can see problem areas. And when I look at your numbers low turn stands out as the single most common cause of death. Does it really matter that you have the same ratio as the rest of the world? You still have 20-30 people die every year! Is that just an acceptable number. "Let them die". Or should something be done were something can be done? One might argue there is nothing to do. I argue there is something you can do to get these numbers down. Never mind the ratio!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #10 April 30, 2003 something always CAN be done, the question is wither something SHOULD or not. in any activity there are elements of risk, skydiving is on the edge as the consequences of your actions can result in death yes! it matters if you have the same ratio per number of participants/activity one death or even ten is tragic..however is the number of deaths OVERALL significant enough that someone else needs to step in and say "NO YOU CANT DO THAT IT MIGHT BE DANGEROUS!"??? as i said before there are lots of things you can do to reduce the number of fatalities from skydiving. The first would be just stop jumping out of planes. problem solved. what i am saying is that the current numbers really dont support the epidemic outrage that to many are implying..Big Brother does not need to step in to save anyone from participating in an activity they KNEW COULD KILL them before they started in the first place. If dying really concerns you watch what you eat & stay inside your home, your more likely to live a long and dull existence that way.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #11 April 30, 2003 Quote How many low turn injuries and deaths will it take before USPA slaps down rules on experience / training vs. cannopy type / size? I jumped a Triathlon 160 (1.25:1) on jump #33. This was at the blessing (and recommendation) of the S&TA of the dropzone. He was aware of my canopy pilot skills to date at the time and gave me instructions and advice on what to expect with that particular jump -- the key to that was that I listened and applied his suggestions. I submit, this was far more effective than a regulating body out of Washington, DC. According to USPA, the average number of jumps per fatality last year was 1,015. That is experienced in my book (IMO only). More than half the deaths were D-License holders (D-License is a "Master" rating). USPA is a voluntary organization, and most parachute manufacturers are member of PIA. It would be very difficult to monitor and frankly piss everyone off to the point of bowing out of the sport completely. I think the industry does a remarkable job of self-regulation. Quote Why do they just accept all these deaths? What? Do you think this sport can be 100% safe? Surely, you jest. Quote I know the topic isn't easy. But I still ask the question. How much of your individual freedom are you willing to sacrifice for the better of the larger group? Very little, if any. Quote I think we all agree we can only benefit from a decrease in the number of deaths and injuries in our sport. In fact, I don't agree. It is from those experiences that many others (like me) can learn from and take appropriate action to adjust my own behavior. Quote Isn't it time to let go of some of that personal freedom, for the good of the team? No. Freedom does mean choice. Unfortunately, that choice means progressing in a sport at a pace of my choosing (whether I listen to more experienced jumpers or not). Regulation is a cookie-cutter approach to unique problems. Look at the UKs regulation of motorcycle progression. I bet there isn't one Brit that would say it isn't a complete pain the *ss and does not equally treat those that have inherent abilities. How many years before you can ride a 750cc? Quote Shit I come across as a complete communist, but I just hate reading about low turn deaths every other weekend! Actually, more socialist than anything, but that's okay. I too do not like reading the new incidents, but there is no single solution to this issue. Without these incidents, those of us who do listen, would have nothing to learn from. Believe it or not, but the self-regulating environment we are in now is more "communistic". I'm probably coming across as a bit brash here, and that really isn't my intent, but in the interests of simplicity, that's what "Inherently Dangerous" means.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #12 April 30, 2003 The AAD took Natural Selection out of skydiving... the Hook turn put it back in... Only that's not the whols story... low turn injuries/fatalities are not just from hook turns, or under highly loaded HP canopies... some are, some are "panic turns" under "resonably loaded" canopies... how do you stop those with regulations or BSRs? JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #13 April 30, 2003 Because some people want to jump smaller canopies and/or hook turn. That's their choice. Do they have to do hook turns? No, but they like to. Guess what would completely elliminate skydiving injuries. Ban skydiving. Do you have to skydive? No, but you like to. No offense but you're right, you do sound like a communist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #14 April 30, 2003 Quote What? Do you think this sport can be 100% safe? Surely, you jest. I wouldn't dream of saying that! But I do feel that every reasonable action that can be taken to minimize the risks should and must be taken. I realize that there is a tradeof between accessibility and safety. As you say. Don't skydive and you are 100% sure you won't kill yourself skydiving, but is not a resonable action. Quote the average number of jumps per fatality last year was 1,015. That is experienced in my book (IMO only). Well what happens if one jumper with 2000 jumps and one with 30 jumps hooks in? The average is till 1000. I realize that experienced jumpers will still hook in and there is very little to be done there, he should have known better! (Note talking about deliberate hook turns). But wasn't there something we could have done for the guy at 30 jumps who didn't know sqaut? Did we give that guy ample time and opportunity to learn from his misstakes? Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think we all agree we can only benefit from a decrease in the number of deaths and injuries in our sport. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact, I don't agree. It is from those experiences that many others (like me) can learn from and take appropriate action to adjust my own behavior That just doesn't make sence! What if there weren't any accidents at all, there would be no need for learning since everyone would be doing the right stuff in the first place since there never were any accidents! I refuse to look at fatalities as a necesary sacrifice for the rest of us to learn form. I look at them as an UNnecesary sacrifice. Of course learning from others misstakes is important! That is exactly my point! LEARN from what is happening and take appropriate action! Appropriate action in my book would be TRAINING! And the ONLY way to ensure that EVERYONE goes through propper training, is to have RULES not recomendations stating that! Is it recomended that you go through a student program? No it's required! Imagine this! A guy shows up at the DZ. "I want to jump, I have never jumped before, but there is a first for everything right!". Would you even consider with no training what so ever slap a rigg on him, fly him to 15 000 ft, kick him out the door "Vaja con dios dude!". No of course not! There is a student plan in place to give people ample opportunity to learn, before we let them jump on their own. Do you feel that the student plan today prepares the newbie engough to jump any cannopy on the market? What's the difference between to two examples? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #15 April 30, 2003 QuoteMore than half the deaths were D-License holders (D-License is a "Master" rating). That always makes me laugh... 200 jumps.... master.. bawaaahaaaaaRemster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #16 April 30, 2003 I agree with you...And if you notice it is people below 500 jumps that are giving you friction. They just don't get it. I didn't at that level either."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #17 April 30, 2003 QuoteGuess what would completely elliminate skydiving injuries. Ban skydiving. Do you have to skydive? No, but you like to. Y'know, it's really not fair that there are already all these damn rules in skydiving. They tell me where to pull - fuck that, I'll pull whenever I damn well please! They tell me I have to have not just a reserve but one that was inspected and repacked within the last 120 days - fuck that, I know my main pack job will work fine, why do I even have to carry the damn thing? It'll open just fine 365 days from it's last repack anyway. They tell me I have to wear a seat belt on takeoff - fuck that, I don't like my body being restrained thank-you-very-much. Ridiculous attitude, isn't it? Because every one of those rules are written in blood - we all know that, right? Some of us even knew the people whose deaths were responsible for them. Brian Germain's suggested progression - 1.0 to 100 jumps, 1.1 to 200 jumps, etc. - is a logical, easy to remember guideline for canopy sizing. It would work to keep higher wingloadings out of the hands of inexperienced people, and it would be easy to implement. How long does it take (for those who can afford hot rod canopys anyway) to make 100 jumps? A couple of months? I'll add my voice to the choir once again - what's the freakin' rush? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #18 April 30, 2003 yeah thats right start off right away with the numbers prejudice. perhaps we understand very well. Perhaps we are just against MORE laws limiting what we can and cannot do with our own lives? perhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 April 30, 2003 Quoteperhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe?? Like I said get some experience, loose some friends, and come back and talk to me. Since I have been doing this 10 years and have almost 3,000 jumps...I know you were not talking to me. Just becasue I care about the future of the sport, and the people in it.... Grow in the sport. Care for someone other than yourself. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #20 April 30, 2003 Quoteperhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe?? My dog wasn't afraid of traffic until after the second time a car hit him. Swooping is the part of the sport that made femur a verb. "Did you hear about ??, he femured in..." There is a sound similar to someone throwing a bale of hay off of the back of a truck. When you have heard that sound a few times, you will understand Lisas point of view. I don't usually get involved in this type of thread because no one ever listens. Just wanted to say that I agree with her usually and on this topic, absolutely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #21 April 30, 2003 Lisa you are the shiznit...You may now return to your regularly scheduled program. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #22 April 30, 2003 Quote Quote perhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe?? Like I said get some experience, loose some friends, and come back and talk to me. ok mighty skygod. first time i've ever had to use that phrase in that manner. beer i guess i'm not worthy to speak to anyone with so much altitude...and so little concern for the freedoms and risks taken to create the sport in the first place.. the future of the sport is not in further restrictions or regulation. the more freedom you take the closer you get to the attitudes that EVERYTHING must be made safe for everyone. Wuffos all around us are bowing under to this exact pressure and you are helping to bring it into our world.... so disenhearting to skydivers so afraid of dying they dont want anyone to actually live____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #23 April 30, 2003 Quoteperhaps we understand very well. Perhaps we are just against MORE laws limiting what we can and cannot do with our own lives? perhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe?? Once again, it's really not your (or anyone else other than myself) personal safety I'm worried about. It's the future of my sport. And once again, instead of whining about more rules (being part of the problem) how about proposing an alternate plan that doesn't limit your "personal freedom" (being part of the solution)? Don't just say "educate" - a look at the incident reports (or a week sitting in my desk at work) shows that whatever education is going on now ain't enough. A simple plan to keep higher wingloaded canopies out of the hands of low experience jumpers that will also be workable throughout the US has been proposed. It could easily be put into place within a matter of months. Any plan to "educate" would take months if not years to implement (look how long it took to get the ISP up - and not every dz is teaching from it yet!). Assuming an average of 7 people with under 500 jumps hooking themselves in every year (those were the numbers for 2002 IIRC)... it could take 21 or more lives lost before "education" makes a difference. I'm not willing to read about 21 more people making the same stupid mistake that has already killed enough. Reading the incident reports as a deterrent ain't workin'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #24 April 30, 2003 Quoteso disenhearting to skydivers so afraid of dying they dont want anyone to actually live Well maybe someday I'll be enlightened enough to "actually live." Until then, I'll stick with doing everything I can to avoid augering my ass into the ground when I'm jumping - that's known as risk management. And I'll continue to preach doing the same to my friends, cuz I'm not yet enlightened enough to be happy when they die because they made the same stupid mistake that others have died from. Quoteok mighty skygod. Let's keep the name calling out of it. 'Kay? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #25 April 30, 2003 it also has to be a plan that is flexible, focuses on proven ability and not simple numbers as a means to determine relative safely.. i dont think it can be dont quickly, nor should it be, its highly unlikely even if a blanket restriction were put in place tomorrow that it would actually be followed. Would it even result in fewer fatalities? or would the cause &/or experience levels of the fatalities simply shift? (as they have already) training and education are the key elements, anything else (including regulation) are bandaids trying to address the effects not the causes of the problem. No it cant be done quickly (very few worthwhile things can) and has issues that need to be worked (and based on the comments about ST&As and AFI recommendations have needed looking at for a while) If what students are being taught isnt enough then that needs to change. If AFI's are making canopy recommendations that are leading people to fly canopies they are not ready for, then address that. until this is done you cant say education isnt working because education isnt really happening at all. unfortunately people are ALWAYS going to make bad decisions and stupid mistakes. The idea is to make sure they are exposed (cant make them drink) to the information to help prevent that. maybe the waiver you sign each year needs to have BIGGER LETTERING so everyone involved really understand you can die doing this..seems like to many people expect life to be safe and are offended when skydiving isnt...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
