Taking Resonsibility

[towerrat 0]

Over the past few years I have started to notice an alarming trend. Although I'm sure this has been going on since the dawn of skydiving, it seems that the blame game has become more and more prevalent in this sport.

Several weeks ago, myself and another instructor witnessed an incident that could have easily resulted in the death of the skydiver involved. This was one of the cases where the jumper did everything wrong, but still lived. It happens, I'm aware of that. a few weeks later, the same jumper, made a very bad decision very low to the ground, and once again, emerged virtually unscathed.

We all know that jumpers make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes will kill or maim. Unfortunately, if we are in denial about those mistakes, we cannot learn from them so as not to make them again. In both cases, the jumper in question was in complete denial as to the actual events that transpired. Not only was he in denial, he went as far as to make up excuses for the incidents and try to pass them off as the truth to the people (with many thousands of jumps and years of experience) who witnessed both events!

The point I'm trying to make here is that we all have to take responsibility for ourselves, not just in skydiving, but in all aspects of life. We also need to try and learn from those around us, especially when they are by far more experienced than you. We need to understand that for the most part, those with that experience are only trying to help keep others alive.


Skydiving is not the place to try and be Chuck Norris. You can't learn everything all by yourself. It took many years of trial and error, and more blood than one can possibly imagine for our sport to be where it is today.

This message I suppose is really directed at the newer jumpers, but it holds true whether you have 2 jumps or 20,000. If the people around you are telling you that what you are doing is going to get you hurt, then you should at least give them a listen.
If you've made seriously stupid mistakes, trying to make excuses and covering them up is not going to get you anywhere but ridiculed. It will more than likely get you killed eventually because your mindset is not one of learning and growing, but of ignorance and regression.

Please try and take responsibility for yourself. By learning from your mistakes and others, you can become a responsible, safe skydiver.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[ladyhawke 0]

As a newby I always appreciate when anything I've unknowingly done is brought to my attention. Hopefully it's done so in an appropriate manner. When I know I've made a mistake I admit it and listen to everything anyone has to say about it and learn from it. I've never made the same mistake twice!

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[BillyVance 35]

I remember being a dumb ass years ago doing stupid shit low to the ground, and getting lucky time and time again. Had an intervention by a very well known and respected jumper. What he told me didn't click at the time as I still made my excuses, but over time, I finally got it.

I hope that dude gets it, or he's going to get dead right quick.

Where's that website with the list of people who are going to die and the odds on them?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[hongkongluna 0]

When i had about 20 jumps and had flown "near" my 2nd obstacle, the first being inside the pond, the 2nd being "near" the plane, props spinning, Army Mike at the Ranch, took me aside, stood about 2 inches from my nose and said, "If you don't learn how to fly your canopy, you're going to die."

I got the message and i appreciated that.. :)

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[LloydDobbler 2]

I 100% agree that accepting responsibility for your own f***-ups is something we should all hopefully learn to do, in a sport that's often unforgiving of bad decisions.

I also see a flipside to this coin - it's all of our responsibility to be "that guy" or "that girl" who points out to the offending party that they're acting like a dumbass, and it's likely to get them killed. Sure, there are different ways to get through to different people. And you can come up with a million reasons why you shouldn't speak up and say something.

"They have more jumps than me."

"Someone else has already talked to them."

"They're an AFF-I, and I only have a B license, so who am I to question them?"

"It was a one-time thing. I've never seen them do anything like that, and I doubt they'll do it again, so I'm not going to say anything."

But not saying something might be a decision you (and they) come to regret.

Fact is, we all do stupid things sometimes. And we all need to catch a little grief about it, from time to time. It keeps us vigilant. It's nothing personal (usually). But in a sport where mistakes cost lives, it's a necessity. As a way of self-policing within the sport, we all have a responsibility to speak up - just as much as we have a responsibility to listen to criticisms when offered, and to accept responsibility for our own actions/mistakes/decisions.

As the other people who posted above seem to be able to attest, a swift kick in the ass can be a really good thing.

Signatures are the new black.

[2shay 0]

I have seen these exact same mistakes ie almost killing themselves with cypress fires and such and yet a few hundered later they are coaches. Coaches sadly enough need to be by case by case scenario in my opinion not just jump numbers and such

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

You mentioned that this person made "mistakes" low to the ground but lucked out. What were the mistakes? Perhaps we can learn from whatever those mistakes were.

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[Reginald 0]

Here’s how more than a few conversations have gone

Idiot (usually a low time jumper) does something stupid down low under a canopy that he probably shouldn’t be on anyway…

Experienced jumper, “Hey man, how did you feel about X”

Idiot, “I was fine with it I’m trying to learn X”

Experienced jumper, “well, it kind of scared some of us who were watching, you’d probably be better off doing Y, for these reasons..”

Idiot, “Hey man, I’m so tired of people telling me I’m being dangerous. This is a sport of individual choice and freedom and as long as I’m not endangering anyone else what do you care?”

Experience jumper, “because we’re your friends and don’t want to see you get hurt”

Idiot, “we’ll it’s my choice on what I want to do and it only affects me so again what do you care?”

Experience jumper, “because I’m tired of going to funerals. It affects me when you break yourself in the landing area and I have to listen to you scream for your mother as your femur is sticking out your ass. I’m tired of it. And I sure as hell don’t want to have to call your mother and tell her you’re crippled for life or dead. It does affect other people.”

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[diablopilot 2]

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Here’s how more than a few conversations have gone

Idiot (usually a low time jumper) does something stupid down low under a canopy that he probably shouldn’t be on anyway…

Experienced jumper, “Hey man, how did you feel about X”

Idiot, “I was fine with it I’m trying to learn X”

Experienced jumper, “well, it kind of scared some of us who were watching, you’d probably be better off doing Y, for these reasons..”

Idiot, “Hey man, I’m so tired of people telling me I’m being dangerous. This is a sport of individual choice and freedom and as long as I’m not endangering anyone else what do you care?”

Experience jumper, “because we’re your friends and don’t want to see you get hurt”

Idiot, “we’ll it’s my choice on what I want to do and it only affects me so again what do you care?”

Experience jumper, “because I’m tired of going to funerals. It affects me when you break yourself in the landing area and I have to listen to you scream for your mother as your femur is sticking out your ass. I’m tired of it. And I sure as hell don’t want to have to call your mother and tell her you’re crippled for life or dead. It does affect other people.” Besides which, if you do it again, you're grounded. Now let's talk about how to get you to X while safely transitioning through T, U, V, W.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BillyVance 35]

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Experience jumper, “because I’m tired of going to funerals. It affects me when you break yourself in the landing area and I have to listen to you scream for your mother as your femur is sticking out your ass. I’m tired of it. And I sure as hell don’t want to have to call your mother and tell her you’re crippled for life or dead. It does affect other people.” Besides which, if you do it again, you're grounded. Now let's talk about how to get you to X while safely transitioning through T, U, V, W.....

That works best if it's the S&TA or DZO saying it.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[erikph 0]

In my experience, the vast majority of people are very prepared to listen to advice. Some people are responsive to a joke (jumprun too low again?). Others understand little bits and pieces of down-to-earth input (at moment X, rather than doing Y, I would have done Z). Etc. If you use the right approach, you will get through to them most of the time.

Those like the one described in the original post, are the exceptions, not the rule. So although it can get frustrating, we have to keep trying.

blue skies,

http://myjumps.blogspot.com/

[ladyhawke 0]

When any person is being dangerous, I agree 100% the S&TA and/or the DZM/DZO should discuss the matter with the person first and foremost. That's part of their job.

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[ladyhawke 0]

I agree with you in some ways. I've been "talked to" in everyway imaginable from joking to being screamed at! I've taken it all in stride, however, if a person continues to be dangerous, then I believe the S&TA should be the one doing the talking.

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[lauraliscious 0]

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Idiot, “Hey man, I’m so tired of people telling me I’m being dangerous. This is a sport of individual choice and freedom and as long as I’m not endangering anyone else what do you care?”

Experience jumper, “because we’re your friends and don’t want to see you get hurt”

Idiot, “we’ll it’s my choice on what I want to do and it only affects me so again what do you care?”

Another response could be that individual actions *can* and *have* affected other people. There are other people in the sky with you who could be hurt by your actions. I know it's rare, but collisions do happen. I can't help but think of Danny Page and Bob Holler. Danny wasn't by any means an idiot low time jumper, but he still did something stupid under a canopy and took out someone else in the process.

I absolutely think everyone should take resposibililty for their actions and try to talk to ANYONE else that they see doing something dangerous. If you are not comfortable talking to the individual yourself, get the S&TA or DZO or another respected jumper at the DZ involved. If you don't feel you have the jump numbers or experience to address it, talk to someone who does.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[towerrat 0]

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I absolutely think everyone should take resposibililty for their actions and try to talk to ANYONE else that they see doing something dangerous. If you are not comfortable talking to the individual yourself, get the S&TA or DZO or another respected jumper at the DZ involved. If you don't feel you have the jump numbers or experience to address it, talk to someone who does.

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The problem here is not the person or persons being spoken to or not. The problem lies in the fact that said persons have no interest in learning or taking constructive criticism, nor do they think they've done anything wrong.

This was the point of my original post. We can all beg, plead cajole or scream until we are blue in the face, but it gets us nowhere if those involved have no desire to learn.
It basically boils down to the 100 jump wonder syndrome.

" I have 100 jumps, I know everything"

" I have 500 jumps, I know everything"

" I have 1,000 jumps, I know everything"

" I have ( insert number here), I know everything"

You get my point.............


NOT FUCKING GOOD ENOUGH!

This is an extreme sport full of huge egos. We really need to try and level ourselves and try to see past that ego in order to grow , learn and remain safe skydivers.Whether we have a hundred jumps or 10,000 jumps, we all still have plenty to learn.

Pay attention guys, the reaper always watches you.


NEVER FORGET THAT!

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

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[popsjumper 2]

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...Idiot, “we’ll it’s my choice on what I want to do and it only affects me so again what do you care?”

BS...it affects the entire skydiving industry. You get hurt, we all suffer in the long run.

Think newspaper headlines.
Think FAA.
Think family.
Think friends.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 873]

You've had me thinking this one over for a bit now Randy.
You're more than 100% corect...but as you stated..everyone can talk to them till they're blue in the face and some sitll won't listen. Personally, I learn something -sometimes life saving- everytime I'm up there / out there. Even from you. Some of those lessons have been very humbling.I for one appreciate that people care, if I went out and fucked up and nobody said anything would be far worse. I think we have some of the most dedicated people in the sport at our DZ and are very lucky that way....some places don't have that.
How far out does our responsibility for others and ouselves go? Given the after hours bahavior of some, especially something like the salsa incident...do we "handle" those situations too?
There are some real jerks/perverts/dishonest people around sometimes and their after hours behavior can be as bad if not worse than their jump behavior.
In those cases THEY won't be resonsible, so we as a community should step up.
We ALL need to have the balls to step up and say something when we know something. If you can't do it youself, take it to a senior staff member, S&TA, DZO.
This may not be the right thread or forum...but you started me thinking...and you know how my mind wanders....