save the oil rigs

[bodypilot90 0]

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the difference is the "book learner" draws on the wisdom and experience of thousands of individuals from the last hundred years or so and then adds his own. your hands on guy only knows what he can see for himself.

well the guy with hands on experance can read up and research a topic, based on his personal experiance can target exactly what he needs, instead of a LA degree and have to study something not related at all just to get the degree.

[billvon 3,120]

>However because of the leftward slant of most places of higher
> learning you don't think this affects the "experts" opinion and
> suggestions? I say it has and does.

Depends on where you go. UCSD? Pretty left leaning. MIT and RPI? The Sloan School of Business? Pretty right wing. Just like people, different places have different points of view.

In the end, it doesn't matter too much what your political leaning is if you're an engineer or a scientist. If you suck, your bridge will fall down, you won't prove your hypothesis or your bacteria won't express the right gene - whether you're left or right. OTOH, if you're a political agitator for Citizens for Florida's Waterways, then it matters a whole lot - because, to protesters, science is merely a tool to be used if it supports their position and poo-poohed if it does not.

>You left out understand if there is a problem.

That falls under "understanding the problem." Every scientist worth his salt knows that an anecdotal account of too many manatees (or too few) means nothing unless backed up by empirical evidence.

[billvon 3,120]

>well the guy with hands on experance can read up and research a
> topic, based on his personal experiance can target exactly what he
> needs . . .

And that is exactly what education leaves you able to do. Brilliant engineers and scientists are not brilliant because they have memorized a lot of stuff - they are brilliant because they have learned how to think well, how to study problems, and where to go to get the information they need. People who have not learned that aren't as good at it.

[bodypilot90 0]

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Going to college does prove that you can read stuff at a certain level,

but the ability to read and understand does not mean they can apply it.

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and seems to correlate with a wider curiosity, which I think is important.

I think it depends on the subject and/or person.

[Zenister 0]

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well the guy with hands on experance can read up and research a topic, based on his personal experiance can target exactly what he needs, instead of a LA degree and have to study something not related at all just to get the degree.

self education can give you some wonderful insight, however most self taught individuals have VERY limited fields of knowledge and therefore cannot see the "big picture" because they are often limited by their internal prejudice and assumptions about how things work..formal training & education teaches you that fields of study and modes of thought that seem wildly different to an uneducated lay person are often very inter twined. Education is as much about learning how to think for yourself and research any topic that turns you on as it is about getting a degree in a specific feild.

Of course the connections are not immediately obvious to anyone who refuses to look deeper than what their simple experience might tell them.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[bodypilot90 0]

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And that is exactly what education leaves you able to do.

Are you saying this is only possible with a formal education?

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Brilliant engineers and scientists are not brilliant because they have memorized a lot of stuff - they are brilliant because they have learned how to think well, how to study problems, and where to go to get the information they need. People who have not learned that aren't as good at it.

and the ability to apply it in real life.

[billvon 3,120]

>Are you saying this is only possible with a formal education?

Not at all. Heck, you could learn to skydive on your own by jumping off bridges on borrowed gear; I know a few people who have survived that particular method. However, a course of instruction makes it a lot easier, and you learn a lot more in fewer jumps. Similarly, it is possible to learn calculus, physics, thermodynamics and computer programming - all of which require you learn new ways of thinking - on your own. With education it's a lot easier.

There are many people who are great builders, boaters, skydivers etc who don't know a thing about civil engineering, aerodynamics or marine biology. Similarly, there are many people who are whizzes at calculus and particle physics who couldn't fix a hole in a boat if their life depended on it. The people you want to analyze things like the manatee issue are the people who can use both their education and their practical experience to come up with a valid explanation and/or solution.

[bodypilot90 0]

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self education can give you some wonderful insight, however most self taught individuals have VERY limited fields of knowledge and therefore cannot see the "big picture" because they are often limited by their internal prejudice and assumptions about how things work.

I say the same thing can happen to with formal training. I'm willing to bet there are more degreed people in PETA than not. (prove me wrong Bill)

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formal training & education teaches you that fields of study and modes of thought that seem wildly different to an uneducated lay person are often very inter twined.

Is this just a choice of words? Just because someone is not degreed doesn't make them uneducated.

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Education is as much about learning how to think for yourself and research any topic that turns you on as it is about getting a degree in a specific feild.

I thought life taught this, mine has.

[bodypilot90 0]

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>Are you saying this is only possible with a formal education?

Not at all. Heck, you could learn to skydive on your own by jumping off bridges on borrowed gear; I know a few people who have survived that particular method. However, a course of instruction makes it a lot easier, and you learn a lot more in fewer jumps. Similarly, it is possible to learn calculus, physics, thermodynamics and computer programming - all of which require you learn new ways of thinking - on your own. With education it's a lot easier.

wow we agree on somethings


Do you believe someone who is self taught would have a better grasp at what they are studying in the end.

[Zenister 0]

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formal training & education teaches you that fields of study and modes of thought that seem wildly different to an uneducated lay person are often very inter twined.

Is this just a choice of words? Just because someone is not degreed doesn't make them uneducated.

i never implied that it did, however they are much more likely to be very narrow in thier study and education unless they follow a guided course of instruction that exposes them to avenues of thought that they would not necessarily look down on their own..

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Education is as much about learning how to think for yourself and research any topic that turns you on as it is about getting a degree in a specific field.

I thought life taught this, mine has.

really? on research ability I would easily put someone with formal education against anyone who tries to do it on their own. Where to find the best sources for information is not always as obvious as it might seem. As bill stated already..its much easier to learn & not repeat stupid (and potentially lethal in some fields) mistakes that were made by others years before if you have a qualified teacher.


as to the degred people in PETA, perhaps your right, but one of the side benefits of a formal education is it usually requires you to travel and experience more than you would if you stayed in your home town. This often leads to a greater concern about things beyond your own life and pleasures, no matter how misguided your intentions may become later on...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[KawiZX900 0]

anybody want to go put really long nails in trees to get back at the evil corporations slashing our forests down??? yeah, me either... vote doanld duck..

Accelerate hard to get them looking, then slam on the fronts and rollright beside the car, hanging the back wheel at eye level for a few seconds. Guaranteed reaction- Dave Sonsky

[billvon 3,120]

>Do you believe someone who is self taught would have a better
>grasp at what they are studying in the end.

Definitely not. There is incredible value in discussing and defending (not just reading) other points of view. A self-taught physicist may know everything in every textbook he's ever read, but that's not the same as being able to research, prove and defend an idea.

A lot of people have this idea that academia is a bunch of people studying inside a windowless citadel. The real world of higher education ain't like that. Aerodynamics engineers at MIT built wind tunnels, tested airfoils and designed ram-air intakes for jet engines. The postdocs at the Long Marine Mammal Lab also cared for the seals, sea lions and dolphins they kept there - including doing most of the veterinary work. If I had to decide who to listen to on cetacean or pinniped care, and my choice is between one of those postdocs or a boater, I'm going with the postdoc any day.

[bodypilot90 0]

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Definitely not. There is incredible value in discussing and defending (not just reading) other points of view. A self-taught physicist may know everything in every textbook he's ever read, but that's not the same as being able to research, prove and defend an idea.

well I disagree, the self-taught person when fighting for water rights must be able to prove his case to others. We had a problem here a while back with a city passing a law that we could not fish under some one's dock by boat. Farmer Mcnasty and friends started calling the law. Well research was done by our group of boaters. We discussed how to fight it. 3 months later we showed the city fathers it was illegal and would be going to court. City fathers backed down and we could fish the docks again.

[billvon 3,120]

>well I disagree, the self-taught person when fighting for water
>rights must be able to prove his case to others.

Proving your case at a trial (say, the OJ trial) or at a political rally and proving your case in a scientific forum are two very different things. The first requires being a good actor; the second requires being a good thinker.