kallend 2,162 #1 June 4, 2003 www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,969920,00.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #2 June 4, 2003 http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #3 June 4, 2003 A GPS guided, 4 stroke w/reduction gear, 1/4 scale drone with a warhead would be a lot more dangerous, I would think. Smaller radar signature, less noise, more precise. Such vehicles have already been flown unguided across the Atlantic; launching 40 of them from a boat off the shore of Manhattan (and then running away) would be pretty easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #4 June 4, 2003 QuoteA GPS guided, 4 stroke w/reduction gear, 1/4 scale drone with a warhead would be a lot more dangerous, I would think. Smaller radar signature, less noise, more precise. Bill, Would you mind translating that for those of us whose IQ is less than 150? Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #5 June 4, 2003 1/4 scale? How much weight could it carry though? A conventional ALCM carries something like a 350lb warhead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #6 June 4, 2003 >Would you mind translating that for those of us whose IQ is less than 150? Sorry. Take a model airplane like this one. Get an engine like this one because they're quiet. Using a reduction gear to drive a larger prop would be even quieter. Get a GPS OEM board like this one and a single board controller like this one. Do some programming to get an autopilot, or use an off the shelf system like this one. Now you have a large (40lb) RC airplane that can carry another 40lb of payload, and fly autonomously from one place to another. It looks like a civilian airplane from a distance so people are less likely to get suspicious if it cruises at a reasonable altitude (500 feet?) How would you stop a few dozen of those things headed towards Manhattan? How would you even shoot them down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #7 June 4, 2003 The really nasty thought would be to not think of it carrying explosives but something else. Something it could disperse as an aerosol from a couple of hundred feet. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #8 June 4, 2003 >1/4 scale? How much weight could it carry though? A conventional >ALCM carries something like a 350lb warhead. A 1/4 scale could carry 40-50 lbs. If you want to carry serious weight, do the same thing with a Cessna 206 - you don't even need to add any servos if it has a two axis autopilot. Just as unlikely to get shot down and can carry ~2000 pounds. You'd need a runway though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #9 June 4, 2003 Quote>Would you mind translating that for those of us whose IQ is less than 150? Sorry. Take a model airplane like this one. Get an engine like this one because they're quiet. Using a reduction gear to drive a larger prop would be even quieter. Get a GPS OEM board like this one and a single board controller like this one. Do some programming to get an autopilot, or use an off the shelf system like this one. Never mind, I find it easier to just nod agreeably. However, if there is a quiz, I'm fucked. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #10 June 4, 2003 QuoteSorry. Take a model airplane like this one. Get an engine like this one because they're quiet. Using a reduction gear to drive a larger prop would be even quieter. Get a GPS OEM board like this one and a single board controller like this one. Do some programming to get an autopilot, or use an off the shelf system like this one. Yup, and i don't really think that any amount of purchase tracking by some all-seeing system is gonna be able to peice that together as a potential threat. The only suspicious peice would be the gps board (wonder if it'll be as apt to get the Galileo location system from the EU as well). Makes you wonder then why, if it's clearly so simple to people with deterimination to get/build this, that your gov. is throwing so much behind data mining/analyzing systems like the Total (now Terrorist.... hey, that's catchy....) Information Awareness one. Seems like catching/addressing these people at the source of their determination would be a more effective strategy to me. If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #11 June 4, 2003 >The only suspicious peice would be the gps board . . . Why? Trimble gives away developer's kits almost for free; if you didn't want to do that you could buy a $49 GPS at REI and use the guts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #12 June 4, 2003 Quoteyou could buy a $49 GPS at REI and use the guts. And pay with cash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,162 #13 June 4, 2003 Quote>1/4 scale? How much weight could it carry though? A conventional >ALCM carries something like a 350lb warhead. A 1/4 scale could carry 40-50 lbs. If you want to carry serious weight, do the same thing with a Cessna 206 - you don't even need to add any servos if it has a two axis autopilot. Just as unlikely to get shot down and can carry ~2000 pounds. You'd need a runway though. Some years ago I worked with a company that developed an "autopilot" (actually it was a wing leveler) that the army used in a small, almost all styrofoam, Mig25 look alike, disposable R/C model. It was only about 6ft in wingspan with a .60 engine and they used it to give infantrymen training at hitting moving airborne targets. The things were impossible to shoot down. Only a direct hit on the engine or radio would stop it, anywhere else just tore a hole in the foam and the thing kept on going. However, we can all sleep safer in our beds knowing that US BATFE is now regulating model rockets.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #14 June 4, 2003 What do you want to bet gun powder is on the horizion? jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #15 June 4, 2003 huh good point. and I'm no chemist but I'd bet the materials for the payload would be just as easy to procure. Really though, the future for the US is going to be interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #16 June 4, 2003 QuoteA GPS guided, 4 stroke w/reduction gear, 1/4 scale drone with a warhead would be a lot more dangerous, I would think. Smaller radar signature, less noise, more precise. QuoteSuch vehicles have already been flown unguided across the Atlantic; Uh, Bill, I think you mean autonomously (id est - self-guided)... *** launching 40 of them from a boat off the shore of Manhattan (and then running away) would be pretty easy. It would also make and excellent means of smuggling across borders. With a 30 to 40 lb payload and a quiet engine, a lot of contraband could be safely transported, and if it fails or is captured, it's a lot less than losing a whole truckload. With COTS parts, it would be difficult to trace...I can see it now - DEA agents staking out Hobbytown, USA looking for people buying parts that could potentially be made into a smuggling craft or a weapon. Is anybody else struck at how silly this is? Yet, it's so much easier to go after the symptoms than the root cause."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #17 June 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteyou could buy a $49 GPS at REI and use the guts. And pay with cash. The serial data output from a GPS is in a standard ASCII plaintext format - lots of folks have hacked GPS units to steer autonomous vehicles of some kind or other. Here, for example, is a 68HC11-based boat, controlled by GPS. If you look at the Assembler routine for the unit, you'll see that it looks pretty logical. Even somebody who gets headaches from Assembler (like me) can look at the code and figure it out. Shouldn't be too hard to get three-axis control out of it. Even more simply, the vehicle could just be programmed with the coordinates of the destination, launched, then locked on the target heading..."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #18 June 4, 2003 This is indeed interesting, but bear in mind that the people who would deliver these weapons don't really care if they die, or are hurt in the process. The remote controlled drones sound cool, but all you really need is a car or van or truck. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #19 June 4, 2003 Quotebut all you really need is a car or van or truck. Not really. All you need is a backpack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #20 June 4, 2003 And I thought I was being gloomily realistic.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #21 June 4, 2003 Now I know what I want for Xmas. __________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ERICCONNELLY 0 #22 June 4, 2003 QuoteNot really. All you need is a backpack Not really, just a bulky sweater - there are a LOT of fat people in the US after all. Is it a beer gut, or a Belly-bomb? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #23 June 4, 2003 >but bear in mind that the people who would deliver these weapons >don't really care if they die, or are hurt in the process. Right, but with autonomous vehicles, you can do it more than once, or hit more than one site at once. The problem isn't that there are crazies out there (there are) the problem is that there may just be one or two really smart crazies. If the very smart ones kill themselves in an attack, then the problem solves itself. If they just keep making drones, they'd be a threat for a long time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,121 #24 June 4, 2003 >and I'm no chemist but I'd bet the materials for the payload >would be just as easy to procure. Yep. You can get them at local stores. I hope you'll forgive me if I don't detail them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #25 June 4, 2003 QuoteI hope you'll forgive me if I don't detail them. yeah, I understand, you're probably walking around with a big red flag on your back as it is If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
