George Bush Resume

[skydyvr 0]

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you're assuming, I think, that if WMD's are not found, that GWB lied about it.

I agree -- if it turns out Iraq's involvement with WMD's was overstated, the more likely case would be that Bush and congress were fed bad intel. That's not lying.

. . =(_8^(1)

[skydyvr 0]

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yeah, about 70% of Americans.

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And dropping. Down to 61% as of yesterday.

No sweat, we just need another quick war to get it back up!

. . =(_8^(1)

[sinker 0]

Well, I'm surprised that it has taken this long for these particular issues to come up from the pro-choice side. And it does usually come to this. It's a shame really, b/c we really were having a good clean not-too-heated debate that didn't resort to such fallacies...

In response to your first statement... I am NOT so cavalier to think that it is easy to give a child up for adoption. It seems you've misunderstood me or I wasn't speaking clearly. I don't know personally how difficult it is, but I have witnessed it. I hope that my wife and I are never in that position. However, just because it is difficult, even gut-wrenching, does not mean that one should avoid it either. Life is full of very difficult things. Many of us have been forced to deal with very difficult things, things we couldn't do anything about. You know, my wife has a wasting, debilitating illness that is shaving time off of her life. And you know, there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. Except suffer through and love her. And in that suffering, I have grown. She has grown. And so it should be in the case of not aborting. You know, you either make the choices and move forward the best you can or you succumb to an "easy" out. No, I'm not saying abortion is an easy decision, but it is far less painful that carrying a baby to term and either keeping it and raising it w/ love or putting it up for adoption to a couple that perhaps couldn't have kids. And, if a baby is a baby, it is a moot point anyway. It all comes back to the humanity of the fetus. So a girl has to put off college b/c she got pregnant and has to drop out in order to take care of her self and her child until adoption or some other choice. Hmmm... college education or a unique, unrepeatable human being?? Hard choice there... /sarcasm off/

Your second paragraph... in a way, you are correct... if a woman is raped, conceives and does not have an abortion, and that woman dies during childbirth, the perpetrator should be guilty of an additional crime b/c of the death of the mother. But realistically, death by childbirth, while not eradicated 100%, is EXTREMELY rare. Yes it happens. But the number of times it happens is so infinitely small. Even still, to entertain this possibility, again very bad things happen to people. It's part of life. People get killed in car accidents. A tree limb may fall on someone's head and kill them. I may accidentally shoot and kill an intruder who was drunk and stumbled into the wrong house. It happens. And it's tragic. But, invoking the principle of double effect, you cannot perform an unjust act so that a good may come of it. Of course, this presupposes the unjustness of abortion.

Your third paragraph: the Pro-life stance does not rob women of the sovereignity of their bodies. The product of conception is NOT the woman's body. It is dependent on the woman's body for growth. The only part of her body was the egg. Once the sperm penetrates the zona pelucida and conception occurs, the genetics are altered in such a way that that "blob of tissue" is now a unique, unrepeatable human being. Not even the blood supply is the same. All it needs is time and growth. C'mon now, look at all the work being done in the labs with cloning and genetics and biotechnologies such as invetro fert and the like. Just b/c it doesn't look like a baby doesn't mean it's not. And again, it is only relying on the woman's body for nutrition and growth and protection. The woman, like it or not, is now a carrier of another person and has responsibilities to it. If she doesn't want to take those responsibilities, well so be it, but she should be aware that as a result she may have caused a human life to perish.

And please... reducing women to mindless fetal incubators? Not very imaginative. I can't think of a more fallacious argument here than this one you've given. It's really just the opposite, this ability of women to bear new life. If she didn't want to run the risk of being pregnant, she shouldn't have sex. That simple. Yes, I'm serious. Same for men. Don't want to father a child? Keep it in your pants. How about personal responsibility for your actions, not "easy outs." Let's look a little deeper at how it SHOULD be... A man and a woman love each other and desire to be united to each other in the deepest way possible. They want to give themselves to the other to such a full extent that they want to give to the other their generative capacity, their ability to participate in the creation of life. And, 9 months later, the two really HAVE become one, not just in their sexual embrace, but in the new person that resulted from that embrace, a new, unique, unrepeatable human being. Ok, so you may be puking now. But really, isn't that the way it should be? Or is our sexuality really about base fucking. In the scenario I painted above, women aren't base fetal incubators, but cherished women who have the greatest natural ability, to participate in the creation and nurturing of new human beings! I know, in the current day and age, this view of human sexuality is not widely accepted. And that is too bad really. Our society is the worse for it.

I agree with your last paragraph somewhat... no woman should take abortion lightly. Most do not. However, some do. For them it's just like birth control. No, the mother's rights are not meaningless. But there is no situation in life where one's "rights" subordinate the most fundamental rights of others, namely to LIFE.

I apologize for the long post.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

/shrugs shoulders/ well, can't say much to that. we all do indeed need to live w/ our choices in life. some are easier to live with than others.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

one last comment from me... and that is about the strength skydiving personalities and the bonds between them and others.

the issue of abortion is such a devisive one that it often times breaks up friendships. I hope that is not the case with those of us having these debates. I feel no ill will whatsoever to anyone who disagrees with my view points and I have no contempt for any woman who may have had an abortion. I will never call you a murderer. I will never think of you as less than human. I have very dear friends who have had abortions and I love them very much.

I hope those of you who disagree with me feel the same.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[misskriss 0]

no hard feelings whatsoever.....just an emotional topic for many people. Peace....

[TheAnvil 0]

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Instead of:

"We think that raped women should have to suffer through the birth of their attacker's child then be victimized further for the rest of their life by their responsibility to raise that child they didn't want in the first place"

we hear "Pro-Life".

As do many republicans, I support the morning after pill and early term abortions. Adoption is a tenable option - someone I care for very deeply just gave a child up for adoption to a very caring couple who couldn't conceive. Unlike my partial birth abortion example, this is a one-scenario option you've presented. My example about partial birth abortion is not so, though you can vary the month a bit.

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Instead of:

"We want to keep the money we make, no matter what, and if that means short-sighted cutting of essential services and the degradation of the quality of life for many low-income Americans, we don't care because the fuckers must be stupid and lazy not to already be rich"

we hear "economy-stimulating tax cuts".

What service has been cut? What welfare program has been reduced and by how much? What homeless shelters are being closed? Instead of rhetoric, give me examples of what your saying.

If not via tax cuts, how would you stimulate the economy? While I disagree with the structure of the second tax cut, I do think something needed to be done. Personally, I would have simply accelerated the tax cuts from the original plan - which I support almost 100% - and then ended the ridiculous practice of the US being the only industrialized nation to tax corporations on foreign profits, ended the marriage penalty, and raised the inheritance tax-floor to US$10mil or so. I do not like this blurring of the lines betwn LLC and Corporation that the recently enacted tax cut induces. What would you do?

Also, it's our money. We earned it.

Look at the choices many in the lower income tax brackets have made. Those choices are the main reasons they are there.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

I'll drink to that sinker! I sent Wendy a PM saying pretty much that same thing. I sort of regret using the abortion example in my prose because all sorts of emotions inevitably come up, and sometimes bad vibes are spread. Good thing we're all grown-ups (body-wise anyway) who like to jump!

Beers to all!

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wmw999 2,588]

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Clinton's Oval Office sexual exploits brought worldwide shame to the presidency

I heard a lot more international opinion about the investigation of his sexual misconduct than I heard about the misconduct in the first place. I don't know which international press you were listening to.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ThighMan 5]

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>Seriously, people out there actually like Bush? What has he done of value?

He gave us two wars. Wartime presidents are often popular; there are a lot of people who _like_ war, and a lot more who don't like the act itself but like it when the US demonstrates its military strength. You need only look back through these forums to find posts about how cool this bomb is, or how excellent this video of a personnel carrier getting blown up is. A lot of those same people equate peace to wimpiness.

What the heck do you mean HE gave us two wars? I thought killing 2000 plus people was an "ACT OF WAR". Remember Iraq, with all the "MASS GRAVES"? What do you people do at night? Stick your head in the sand and only listen to one side of the story?
Clinton should have been IMPEACHED! Nice try but it didn't pass. President Bush, AWOL/Desertion, lets see the whole thing.
It makes me worry what people think and how they act. Peace is not wimpiness. Any Military person will tell you that they prefer Peace. It is just that sometimes, we have to stand up to/for ideas. If Japan had attacked today, you people would not consider it a act of war and we should not retaliate. Think about that one for a while.

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[jfields 0]

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Your second paragraph... in a way, you are correct... if a woman is raped, conceives and does not have an abortion, and that woman dies during childbirth, the perpetrator should be guilty of an additional crime b/c of the death of the mother.

You miss the point here, and pass the buck. In this scenario, after the initial crime of rape, the woman does not have to die. Rather than the rapist being charged with her death, it ought to be those that deprived her of the right to potentially save her own life. Would you be willing to go to jail for murder because a mother died in childbirth you told her she had to have? If not, how can you justify your authority and responsibility over her body? Either you are responsible, with appropriate punishment, or she is. You can't have it both ways.

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But realistically, death by childbirth, while not eradicated 100%, is EXTREMELY rare. Yes it happens. But the number of times it happens is so infinitely small. Even still, to entertain this possibility, again very bad things happen to people.

Yes. Innocent people going to death row and being executed happens too. Because it doesn't happen every day makes it okay? Would you be okay if you were sentenced to death and executed for a crime you didn't commit? If you think that is fine and cool, then I doubt your honesty. If you object to that, how can you ask that of a woman? Rather than discussing odds, the flat fact is that you are trying to order a woman to risk her life against her will. That is wrong.

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Your third paragraph: the Pro-life stance does not rob women of the sovereignity of their bodies. The product of conception is NOT the woman's body. It is dependent on the woman's body for growth. The only part of her body was the egg.

Sure it robs them of the sovereignity of their bodies. How does a rape victim choose to be pregnant? How does a rape victim choose to have her body altered forever by childbirth? As I said in refutation of your last point, how does a rape victim you order to deliver the baby choose to risk her life in childbirth?

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cloning and genetics and biotechnologies such as invetro fert

Throwing cloning and genetics in the discussion is just a diversionary tactic. It is moot, because it has nothing to do with abortion rights. You are talking about taking away a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. We aren't talking about mad scientists running around and stealthily using in-vitro fertilization to rape women.

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The woman, like it or not, is now a carrier of another person and has responsibilities to it. If she doesn't want to take those responsibilities, well so be it, but she should be aware that as a result she may have caused a human life to perish.

She has a responsibility to a collection of cells forced into her unwillingly by a rapist? I have no doubt that women are aware they are taking a human life, but nobody else has the right to take the choice of their own life from them.

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If she didn't want to run the risk of being pregnant, she shouldn't have sex. That simple. Yes, I'm serious. Same for men. Don't want to father a child? Keep it in your pants. How about personal responsibility for your actions, not "easy outs."

And this applies to rape how? I certainly believe in being personally responsible. You are trying to take the right/duty of personal responsibility away from women.

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Let's look a little deeper at how it SHOULD be... A man and a woman love each other and desire to be united to each other in the deepest way possible. They want to give themselves to the other to such a full extent that they want to give to the other their generative capacity, their ability to participate in the creation of life. And, 9 months later, the two really HAVE become one, not just in their sexual embrace, but in the new person that resulted from that embrace, a new, unique, unrepeatable human being.

I agree with this. Really, I do. That is the ideal. No argument at all about that. But what about the person that doesn't want to have baby, maybe because they are 14 and not even sexually active, but a victim of rape. You are commanding them to go through with it, no matter how much it may wreck or end their life.

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In the scenario I painted above, women aren't base fetal incubators, but cherished women who have the greatest natural ability, to participate in the creation and nurturing of new human beings! I know, in the current day and age, this view of human sexuality is not widely accepted. And that is too bad really.

In that scenario, no, they are not being mistreated or violated in any way. But you are attempting to expand the ideals into a very different real world. That attempt to take the woman's choice out of the issue is an injustice to women.

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I agree with your last paragraph somewhat... no woman should take abortion lightly. Most do not. However, some do. For them it's just like birth control.

The few that do... well, I don't agree with that either. So I'm with you there. Life shouldn't be taken in a cavalier fashion.

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But there is no situation in life where one's "rights" subordinate the most fundamental rights of others, namely to LIFE.

Here is one of the fundamental contradictions. In part because of the risk of childbirth death, the "pro-life" view is really misnamed. It is more "pro-embryo", "pro-fetus" or "pro-baby", because a sweeping ban on abortion would directly cause the deaths of some mothers. The strict stance against abortion clearly correlates to a view that unborn fetuses are more important than adult women. I object to that characterization.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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the issue of abortion is such a devisive one that it often times breaks up friendships. I hope that is not the case with those of us having these debates.

I just wanted to say something here. I've been lurking this thread, but have not been posting as I seem to have misplaced my ten-foot pole.

I think it is so valuable that we as skydivers have the opportunity to interact with so many different people from so many different backgrounds. If we weren't skydiving, would we ever have gotten outside our circle of like-minded thinkers? As an academic, I am pretty much surrounded by the left and view the world pretty much from the left. Where, then, is the possibility for debate? Who do I interact with at school that could express opposing viewpoints to me? It is threads like these that, as difficult and emotional as they can be, keep open debate going - and I don't think that as a society we can make any progress without open debate.

Skydivers rule!

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[skydyvr 0]

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I heard a lot more international opinion about the investigation of his sexual misconduct than I heard about the misconduct in the first place.

The international opinion I was listening to kept snickering about what a joke it was Clinton was being investigated for having extramarital sex, not commiting the crime of lying under oath.

Same thing most of the home town lefties kept saying. Some of the dimmer ones are still saying it today.

Overblown as the whole thing may have been, Clinton nonetheless took a giant crap on the image of the presidency, and again it is a great indicator of just what kind of man he is. Probably been said here before, but did you know Ron Reagan wouldn't even enter the oval office without a suit and tie?

. . =(_8^(1)

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

From the CDC:

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in the United States, the annual maternal mortality ratio * remained approximately 7.5 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births during 1982-1996.

That is greater than the fatality rate for skydiving which we all agree is a risky sport.

Pregnancy is not without risk even in the Grand USA

Edit to add source:

http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00054602.htm

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The international opinion I was listening to kept snickering about what a joke it was Clinton was being investigated for having extramarital sex, not commiting the crime of lying under oath.

I lived in Holland during the time of Clinton's unfortunate head incident Most of the snickering was done because in Europe it just would not have been news. It would have never been an issue, Clinton would have never been asked the question. Most people in Europe snickered, because we never saw it as an issue.

In mainland Europe, the press mostly leaves the private life of politicians alone. If it doesn't affect the office, then it really isn't all that interesting.

[jrpayne 0]

Hixxx,
It sounds like your in need of a daily dose of Rush.

[Muenkel 0]

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In mainland Europe, the press mostly leaves the private life of politicians alone

Yeah, they're too busy chasing down the royal families.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[jfields 0]

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In mainland Europe, the press mostly leaves the private life of politicians alone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, they're too busy chasing down the royal families.

But then when they are to harrassed to get anything done, at least it doesn't matter/

• Quote

[Muenkel 0]

Very true!

[TheAnvil 0]

My experience in Australia around the same time period mirrors yours. The Aussie's I was drinking with didn't really care about that sex scandal. They were amazed I despised El Jefe Clintonista so much, actually, but they didn't know a lot about American internal politics. He was quite popular over there.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Yeah, they're too busy chasing down the royal families.

And that is really only true of Brittain. Since I went to school and university with the son(s) of the Dutch Queen, I can assure you that many stories were never ever reported.

[billvon 3,116]

>I thought killing 2000 plus people was an "ACT OF WAR".

That was Bin Laden. I know, it was easier to invade Iraq than to find him, but a few of us still remember that it was Bin Laden who killed 2000 people, not Hussein. It amazes me how short people's memories are. 2000 Americans dead, and you fell for a bait and switch on who did it! With an attitude like that, the Bin Ladens of the world will sleep a little easier.

>If Japan had attacked today, you people would not consider it a act
>of war and we should not retaliate. Think about that one for a while.

No, we would consider it an act of war. But the difference between "us" and you is that we'd go after Japan, not Iraq.

[ThighMan 5]

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>I thought killing 2000 plus people was an "ACT OF WAR".

That was Bin Laden. I know, it was easier to invade Iraq than to find him, but a few of us still remember that it was Bin Laden who killed 2000 people, not Hussein. It amazes me how short people's memories are. 2000 Americans dead, and you fell for a bait and switch on who did it! With an attitude like that, the Bin Ladens of the world will sleep a little easier.

>If Japan had attacked today, you people would not consider it a act
>of war and we should not retaliate. Think about that one for a while.

No, we would consider it an act of war. But the difference between "us" and you is that we'd go after Japan, not Iraq.

Nice try. Next time, if you are going to "QUOTE ME" us the whole darn thing. In Iraq, the "MASS GRAVES" and the building full of bodies. Oh, let me guess, it is OK to kill your own people so long as it doesn't involve WMD? But, thanks anyway. As for the "BAIT AND SWITCH", how about the training camps and other links. Hmmmm, no could not be. It is all a lie put on by the President of the United States and all the news (FOX and CNN included) agencies. Open the mind and look outside the little world you live in. Go to one of these countries and see what it is really like. Have I, Yes. I have seen what it is like to live in a different country, see the differences and what it is like to be a target just because I was an American. You do this and then come back and then we can really have a talk. Oh, by the way, depending on the country, you can't drive if you are a woman. Much less travel by yourself. And when in Saudi, remember the vail. So, with that in mind, have a great trip.

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[billvon 3,116]

> But, thanks anyway. As for the "BAIT AND SWITCH", how about the
> training camps and other links.

I'm waiting for any proof that the 9/11 hijackers came from Iraq, or were trained there. Not just that there are terrorists there - heck, we _like_ terrorists when they're killing people we don't like.

>It is all a lie put on by the President of the United States and all the
>news (FOX and CNN included) agencies.

No, just a bait and switch, where you say one thing, then claim another.

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
George Bush 9/13/01

"So I don't know where he is. I just don't spend that much time on him . . . I truly am not that concerned about him." George Bush 3/13/02

--------------------------------------------------------

The lying part (OK, the "slight misrepresentation of intelligence data") comes in via:

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

George W. Bush, March 17, 2003

"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."

Paul Wolfowitz, May 28, 2003

>and what it is like to be a target just because I was an American.
>You do this and then come back and then we can really have a talk.

Over the past few months, the majority of American interaction with Arabs has been to kill them; we sent 250,000 people there to do just that to some 10,000 odd Arabs. That's why you're a target. Many Arabs only experience with Americans comes after a bomb just misses them or a cluster bomblet blows their arms off. Understandable that they'd dislike you; I suspect you'd dislike meeting Al Qaeda supporters for the same reason, even if they were not actually part of the active group.

[kallend 2,148]

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>I thought killing 2000 plus people was an "ACT OF WAR".

That was Bin Laden. I know, it was easier to invade Iraq than to find him, but a few of us still remember that it was Bin Laden who killed 2000 people, not Hussein. It amazes me how short people's memories are. 2000 Americans dead, and you fell for a bait and switch on who did it! With an attitude like that, the Bin Ladens of the world will sleep a little easier.

>If Japan had attacked today, you people would not consider it a act
>of war and we should not retaliate. Think about that one for a while.

No, we would consider it an act of war. But the difference between "us" and you is that we'd go after Japan, not Iraq.

Nice try. Next time, if you are going to "QUOTE ME" us the whole darn thing. In Iraq, the "MASS GRAVES" and the building full of bodies. Oh, let me guess, it is OK to kill your own people so long as it doesn't involve WMD? But, thanks anyway. As for the "BAIT AND SWITCH", how about the training camps and other links. Hmmmm, no could not be. It is all a lie put on by the President of the United States and all the news (FOX and CNN included) agencies. Open the mind and look outside the little world you live in. Go to one of these countries and see what it is really like. Have I, Yes. I have seen what it is like to live in a different country, see the differences and what it is like to be a target just because I was an American. You do this and then come back and then we can really have a talk. Oh, by the way, depending on the country, you can't drive if you are a woman. Much less travel by yourself. And when in Saudi, remember the vail. So, with that in mind, have a great trip.

Everything you wrote about atrocities in Iraq was even more true of Stalinist USSR and Maoist China (and probably of present day North Korea). Did you advocate invading them too?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.