The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents.

[freakydiver 0]

Where in the Incident forum posting guidlines does it say speculation isn't allowed?

"The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents."

Isn't it possible that speculation could lead to free thinking which in turn may lead to SOMEONES LIFE BEING SAVED?

I'm sick of people getting all bent out of shape in the Incident forums when people begin talking about an Incident and others get a little queasy because the Incident may have just happened a weekend ago or something. What the heck is the point of an Incident discussion forum if not to, as the guidelines state:

"The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents."

Wouldn't it make more sense to keep all ideas and speculations and possible actions to be taken the next time something happens like that given Incident in one single place so that when a jumper reads the first posting which is usually the Incident itself, they are able to take away all possible information on what to do if this were ever happen again?

Thoughts? Opinions??

The reason I am writing this is in response to the Roger Nelson Incident thread being locked down. I completely understand that this is a fresh incident and hurts MANY people out there. Having said that, wouldn't it make more sense to allow the disucssion to continue so people can better understand how to handle a bad trauma when it occurs?? Granted, it may hurt for people to read about the Incident, of course its going to hurt, I would HOPE it hurts, it hurts me everyday to think that I will never be able to talk to Roger again. But the whole point of internet discussion forums is for information gain, and IMHO by locking down threads that DO NOT break any of the posting guidelines seems outright lame to me, not to mention it potentially increases the chance that when another Incident that hasn't been fully discussed occurs, there will probably be someone out there that will react to the situation wrong on the ground or in the air.

Blue ones all.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

Yah forget about responding - that's just great!!!

DZ.com is becoming lamer by the minute - thank god for the real world!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[sangiro 26]

It got locked because people STOPPED talking about the incident and started talking about what they should talk about. (A discussion that we've had many times before by the way!) Talk about talk belongs here. You are basing this post (and your emails and PMs to me) on a wrong assumption that the thread got locked because people were saying sensitive things.

  Quote

DZ.com is becoming lamer by the minute - thank god for the real world!

Have fun out there!

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[Push 0]

As long as everyone understands that what is being said is speculation then it should be alright. Too often though speculation becomes truth in people's eyes and the shit hits the fan.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[freakydiver 0]

Which post in particular was that far off subject? Just curious.

Thank you in advance!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[LouDiamond 1]

  Quote

DZ.com is becoming lamer by the minute - thank god for the real world!

OK, if you say so. Go have fun over at the Rec., Sangiro's rules are easy for the majority to follow. Come back when you can play well with others..door is over there

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[freakydiver 0]

Hey Lou - thats just great. Really well thought out reply. Don't you get it dood? I'm just trying to expand the thought processes that go on here TO HELP SAVE LIVES. Obviously you don't see that or don't care to see that.

Once again:

DZ.com is becoming lamer by the minute - thank god for the real world!

I could care less about any discussion forum to be honest with you, but the fact of the matter is, there are quite a few intelligent people running around on this one that could possibly affect the outcome of an incident in the future, and if you don't feel the need to be a part of that, go hook turn into someone at fifty feet or be the first responder to someone and have no fucking clue how or what to do with them and cause more damage than not.

"FREEDOM ISN'T FREE "

neither is knowledge - you have to WORK to become smarter.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[SkySlut 0]

I think that speculation is good as long as it is stated that it is speculation...there are soooo many things that can go wrong. Most jumpers arent even aware of the numerous posibilities, so it may bring up some topics that are new to jumpers, newbies and veterans alike...which may save a life. The actual cause of fatalities sometimes just is never known...should we not learn from that incident??? Maybe having a discussion on the possibilites may bring up the actual answer and discover a better and safer method of training, gear, etc for the future.

I think that if you werent there to witness the accident you shouldnt post "facts" on the actual injury/fatality. The forum should be used as a discussion to raise and answer questions that people have. There are no stupid questions, right??? If someone doesnt know how something like this or any other incident could happen then they should ask the question..."why did this happen and how can I avoid this?" The immediate answers may not be known, but the person that asked that question is going to learn a whole hell of a lot from other peoples "speculation" as to what MAY have happened. As long as people use their best judgement and not make it a freeforall circus of random and irrelevant facts...then by all means post-on! It is going to teach someone something and it may quite possibly save their life someday.

We will never know everything about skydiving...Lets just use our heads and keep on the path of educating ourselves and others.

[Deuce 1]

The group over there got tied up in who was qualified to to CPR, forchristsakes. Whether med students were qualified to to field trauma first aid, yada yada.

It had entirely stopped talking about specifically what had caused a collision "the incident" between a veteran canopy pilot and another resulting in the death of the veteran canopy pilot.

He's dead. He can't tell us what he was thinking, and Incidents restricts itself to eyewitness accounts and informed observation with available facts. When people get off into "What if.." land, the thread gets locked. Every time.

I didn't know Roger, but I knew Holly, a little. I was glad for the restriction. Still am.

JP

[freakydiver 0]

I'm completely with you about the speculation point - however, people are expected to be able to read here regardless of their jump numbers and experience therefore they should be able to figure out speculation from actual fact. If I read through that Roger Nelson incident thread, I can figure out what is fact and what is spec.

"I think that if you werent there to witness the accident you shouldnt post "facts" on the actual injury/fatality."

Thats kind of a no brainer I would hope, who in their right mind would attempt to post facts if they weren't there or didn't see anything!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

Sure sure - I'm with you there, but after those posts, it got back on track and it didn't get off of track for more than five posts or so.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[LouDiamond 1]

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Hey Lou - thats just great. Really well thought out reply. Don't you get it dood?

No, you obviously don't get it dude. Sangiro has said it many a time what type of discussion is held in the Incident forum, it's cut and dry.

  Quote

I'm just trying to expand the thought processes that go on here TO HELP SAVE LIVES. Obviously you don't see that or don't care to see that.

Everyone is for saving lives in our sport and if you wish to discuss that aspect of it, there is a different forum to do that in and it's not the incidents forum. Are you seeing where this is going now? We're all on the same side here. I think your emotion is clouding your better judgement right now. Back up and take a deep breath, Sangiro is being fair with you and replied to you, he didn't have to do that but he did.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SkySlut 0]

I know that its common sense, but people can be pretty thick at times. Especially, reading things...even in the talk back forum. Sometimes, they will ask questions that were obviously stated in a previous post. Go figure...

I have seen people post "facts" about an incident when they werent there. For example, "I know him/her and they have this equipment or never engaged in this behavior or always wore glasses, etc". Its good background information, but it can be read by others as fact coming from an "informed" source. That is where the shitstorm starts to roll in.

[Push 0]

Tell you what, I'm starting a thread in S&T about Roger. Anyone should be free to say anything relevant there, even who should give CPR.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[freakydiver 0]

Forget it. Revolution over. Everyone search through three different places to learn how to prevent or help out an incident in the future. You think I care if the thread admin replies or not? I couldn't care less.

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Everyone is for saving lives in our sport and if you wish to discuss that aspect of it, there is a different forum to do that in and it's not the incidents forum. Are you seeing where this is going now? We're all on the same side here. I think your emotion is clouding your better judgement right now. Back up and take a deep breath, Sangiro is being fair with you and replied to you, he didn't have to do that but he did.

I know damn well where its all going. It makes no sense to me as a software developer to make people sift through two different places when reading about ONE incident. I never said Sangiro wasn't being fair with me BTW. Also, don't pretend to know what my emotions are about things since you don't know me and I don't know you.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[SadSue 0]

OK, if you say so. Go have fun over at the Rec., Sangiro's rules are easy for the majority to follow. Come back when you can play well with others..door is over there

[peppermint 0]

There are rules to follow everywhere. Just yesterday, I get an four hour dog and pony bureaucracy show of paperwork and being talked to by overanxious drones embroiled in their discussions of paranoia, sex, and impish greed. And highly disorganized. If that office were a dog, it would need a committee and five hours to lick its own ass.

The flowing wave returns not, nor does the passing hour.

[freakydiver 0]

From a software design standpoint that sure makes a great deal of sense - now we have THREE places to discuss how to react to the next Roger Nelson incident. God I hope everyone realises that and goes to each freakin thread to get the most out of learning!!!

"The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents."

Oh yah did I mention,

"The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents."

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

Nice post - relevnace is?

MY POINT IS, and let me be clear unlike you - no rules were broken in the Incident thread about Roger Nelson. It may have gotten off track for 5-7 posts, but after a warning it got back on track and people were learning.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[peppermint 0]

relevance is==chill out!

The flowing wave returns not, nor does the passing hour.

[freakydiver 0]

Chill out about something I care so deeply about? Having only 7 jumps I couldn't ask you to understand. I will not chill out when there is a strong possibility that because a thread gets locked that someone may miss out on key information that may help out during a time of incident.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Push 0]

Dude, I am also a software developer, and all I can tell you is, design is all nice and good, but starting a row this big over (what in your opinion is) a fairly minor design flaw is an overreaction. Seems to me like you submitted your proposal to the design team and they didn't like it. Chill.

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also of the opinion that locking that thread was very premature.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[freakydiver 0]

ROFL - fairly minor design flaw? Right. Why not just use the Incident forum for what it was originally setup for?

If the design team disagrees with my suggestinos - ALTER THE freaking POSTING RULES THEN and I'll stfu and buy everyone beer (just so you all know, there are no personaly vendettas here, and I'd buy you all a beer any day as you are all very cool people in my book, even you Lou sorry about getting all peeved).

Also there is no such thing as overreacting to an Incident when my reaction is only intended to save the next Roger Nelson if at all possible. Would you agree? Disagree??

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[FliegendeWolf 0]

This way to the ice cream thread, the ice cream thread, the ice cream thread.

This way to the ice cream thread, go have yourself a scoop!

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[LouDiamond 1]

In reply to:

sadsue:

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Don't you think we are all entitled to our own opinion? It doenst matter if YOU don't like it.

freakydiver:

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It makes no sense to me as a software developer to make people sift through two different places when reading about ONE incident

No, I don't have blinders on if thats what you mean. however, this topic has been beaten to death on numerous occassions and it seems that a few people refuse to follow the wishes of the man who owns and runs this site. This is his house, he can lock what he pleases and require people to access as many different places as he feels like in order to get information. It's just that simple, it's his ball and his ball park. When people refuse to follow rules, like anywhere else in society, something is done. We as a society all agree to abide by those rules, wheather we like them or not. That's waht makes us a community here and in the real world.

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Also, don't pretend to know what my emotions are about things since you don't know me and I don't know you.

Well based on your posts I would say that there is some emotion involved, otherwise you wouldn't of become upset over the thread being locked and posted such an obvious in your face post in talk back.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING