jfields 0 #76 September 25, 2002 This whole issue is horrendous for me. I jumped with both Tim and Gary. Tim really was a great guy. I met his fiancée and she is a wonderful person as well. Despite what you may think based on this one event, so is Gary. It pains me to see their reputations dragged through the dirt and see Gary basically get declared a traitor by people that never even met him. Since I wasn't in Rantoul, I can't intelligently debate what went on there. Gary says something else was involved other than what was printed in the paper. Others among you say that everything was perfectly clear. I personally don't know which is true, but I suspect the real answer is somewhere in the middle. Any time there are differing accounts of any event, the truth is usually closest to a combination of the perspectives. I don't know why Tim did what he did. I want to understand it, but I suspect I never will and will always wonder. I also don't know about the mysterious things Gary is alluding to. However, rec.skydiving is about the last place I would go to discuss anything. I wouldn't read it, much less get drawn into debate with the posters. The people there showed an incredible lack of compassion for the death of a human being and fellow skydiver. Let’s try to set a better example. What I see is a ton of people jumping to conclusions. Has anyone seen a lawsuit with Gary’s name on it? Or was it another part of Tim’s family? All we have is guesswork. People with no legal or emotional attachment to the issue are pointing fingers and calling for rash action against Gary. I myself have issues with skydivers suing fellow jumpers, DZs, pilots, and organizers when accidents happen. But if there was something else to the story, as Gary says, then perhaps it does merit action. I don’t know. Let’s wait and see. Whether to take things to court or not is the family’s choice. I know that none of them other than Gary signed any release of liability or waiver. They still have the right to sue if they feel like it. All of our whining has no ability to remove that right, nor should it. Them suing does not simply mean they are “money-grubbing”. They lost a family member forever. Perhaps they feel some safety measure needs to be enforced and a lawsuit will bring about the change. Maybe, perhaps, could be, possibly, whatever. I don’t know their thoughts or reasons, and neither do any of you. Rather than us acting as the judge and jury, why don’t we just wait until all the facts come out? All our bitching one way or another won’t dissuade other people from suing if they want to, and, more importantly, it won’t bring Tim back. Gary is a reasonable guy. Since nothing we do right now can change things, I’d ask you just to give him the benefit of the doubt before you judge him. If there is more to the story, wait until you hear it. I’m not unequivocally defending his actions. I’m simply asking you to postpone your judgment until things are settled by the proper authority and the facts are established. Sadly, that authority might be a courtroom. I can’t even say now precisely what my thoughts will be when all is said and done, but I’m waiting before making up my mind. Whatever happened, for whatever reason, the only thing I’m positive about is that the whole scenario is tragic and a lot of people are hurting. Please try not to make things worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #77 September 25, 2002 QuoteI am not saying I agree with it because I don't agree. But they are entitled to their day in court. Absolutely. My big problem with the current tort system is that people can file a lawsuit for anything and it has to be heard. There are no pre-screens for a lawsuit. You just walk into the courthouse and file it. Bing! You now have a lawsuit. That means the defendant has to go hire an attorney who charges by the hour (usualy $250/hr or more) to come in and defend it or get it thrown out. And even with a frivilous lawsuit that will take up several hours of an attorney's time. I mean lots. Plaintiffs attorneys, on the other hand, don't charge by the hour. They charge on contingency. In other words, you lose you pay nothing (other than court costs, discovery expenses, etc.). You win the attorney gets a cut. What's wrong with this picture? A person wanting to sue has nothing to lose and everything to gain. The defendant loses either way. There are plenty of plaintiffs attorneys out there willing to file a marginal cases because they know most defendants will pay to make them go away because it will be cheaper to settle than to defend... even if they are in the right. That's why I call it legalized extortion. Because that's what it is. But you are right, everyone has a right to their day in court and I wouldn't advocate taking that away. So how do you fix it? A couple ways... 1. Loser pays the other parties' attorney's fees. 2. Cap unliquidated damages like emotional distress, pain & suffering, loss of consortium, etc. Do those two things and you'll see frivilous lawsuits practically disappear. That means insurance premiums and product costs will also go down. And in my mind that's a good thing. YMMV. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trilete312 0 #78 September 25, 2002 Hi all, To send this thread in a more positive direction, My parents live in Rantoul and the WFFC impressed the city. Once they got rid of the opening weekend charge for spectators, the town really got into it. The fact that skydivers would land by the swoop pond then come over and talk to the spectators and give something as simple as a pull up cord to the kids really made an excellent impression. I have a 7 year old nephew in town who is still talking about all the cool stuff he saw. The city was really worried about the parties that they heard were involved with skydiving boogies, but the only problem they had was from a couple of locals who caused some trouble. In fact the city just gave the organizers some money to help offset advertising fees from last year. To pry cash out of this city is an impressive feat, they want the WFFC to return. Overall, the WFFC made an excellent impression on Rantoul and from everything I have heard, the city definitely wants it back. Good Job to everyone who attended. Blue Skies----------- Ready, Set, Gooooooo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #79 September 25, 2002 I gave away a TON of pullup cords to kids.. lol That was fun!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #80 September 25, 2002 I generally agree with justin and zennie. Here are my $.02 rhino has said that a lawsuit might be a way of dealing with the family's pain, a way of closing the incident. I think that is quite the opposite. That is a method of dragging the issue out for perpetuity. If you want to get over it, shut the coffin, pour the dirt and GO HOME! Law suits are to a great extent a way of making money. Our legal system, though great as a concept, has in my oppinion changed to a travesty of what was intended. So the family is greiving, but that does not let them forget about cashing in on the tragedy. Sorry for being harsh, but that is the way I see it. I was not there to see it, that is a fact. The FAA is a vicious organization and would not anything malicious get away, that also is a fact. FAA considers this an accident. Whatever has happened there must have been an accident. End of story. The kid walked into the path of flight of a helicopter and is dead. Nice and cool as he might have been, obviously at that particular (hence last) moment of his life he shut his brain off. I have seen it happen. I have seen a man clean a working die cast press. I have seen his hand get pulled into the machine. I was the one to hit the red STOP button. There was a huge sign in front of the operators face that said: NEVER CLEAN THE MACHINE WHILE IN OPERATION. Unknown are the ways of the human mind. It is true that the family might be required to sue in order to get insurance money. That however is a way of cashing in on the tragedy. If they wanted to forget, or close the whole thing they would not have done it. They would have said: OK, in the loving memory of our son/brother we shall pass this one over In the end it is all about choices. The family has the right to sue. They also have the right not to sue. If they were really grieving.... . Well who am I to judge. Should anything happen to me in this sport, I know my brothers would be grief struck. I also know that they would consider it an insult to my memmory to go into litigation over it. Have a nice day everybody!jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #81 September 25, 2002 What a dumbass. Yeah...add this guy to the list of people I will NEVER jump with, hang around, or even want to look at. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #82 September 25, 2002 QuoteI have a 7 year old nephew in town who is still talking about all the cool stuff he saw. Wow...that's pretty cool to know that something that brings me so much joy also gives so much to the locals. Next year....I'll be swooping the shit out of that spectator fence. Even if it is a long walk back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #83 September 25, 2002 Has anyone read the write-up in Skydiving? It alluded to a different scenario with regards to what the pilot knew or agreed to. No idea at all if there is any validity to that. Don't want to imply that because it is in print, it is the truth.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #84 September 25, 2002 Swooping that fence was lots of fun!! Signing autographs and all.. What a blast!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #85 September 25, 2002 QuoteRather than us acting as the judge and jury, why don’t we just wait until all the facts come out? Exactly. Another thing to remember - if there's insurance companies involved, they might be pressing the lawsuit, not the famliy. Question: If it turns out that this mysterious video shows him asking for permission, and getting it, and standing there in plan view the entire time* - how many of you are still going to call him a dumb-ass darwin award nominee? And then do you still see it as horribly wrong that his family file a lawsuit? I'm not sure you can just say "skydivers shouldn't sue other skydivers - we all know the risks" because there's exceptions to every rule, and there are some stupid ass skydivers out there too. *I don't think this is going to be the case, but you never know. Rod is human too, he may have fucked up.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #86 September 25, 2002 Quotethe deceased waived that right for himself and his entire family when he initialed and signed that pile of papers. This is incorrect. In no state may you waive anyone else's rights but your own, including those of a minor under your care, unless you hold Power of Attorney. You may not make legal property decisions unless you are an executor of an estate. The wrongful death waiver protects from liability litigation from the executor over someone's estate, suing on behalf of you; but it will not protect anyone from being sued by someone on their own behalf for "wonton infliction of emotional damages", etc. other misc. crap. You can't even imagine what totally unrelated entities there are out there that can sue for damages and the waiver would not protect the DZ. What the waiver DOES do, is protect the DZ from losing in the courtroom against these greedy people. Because the skydiver signed that 80-pt-bold-ariel "[B]SKYDIVING MAY KILL YOU", the skydiver's family doesn't really have a case for negligent death. The skydiver's former employer might be able to sue (and lose) for missing productivity, etc. blah blah. These people are suing to "get back" at someone for their grief and get some cashola. Chances are they spoke to an attorney who wants to get some civil court time in. That's all. Welcome to Frivolous Tort 101. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TequilaGirl 0 #87 September 25, 2002 Here is a thought - if someone knows where this lawsuit is filed - I will get a copy of it and post it here.....if there is no lawsuit - it sounds like a bunch of guys are spinning your wheels for no reason..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Phil 0 #88 September 25, 2002 As my wife just got back from the US, she being US citizen, it was interesting to hear her comment about the fact, that she was scared driving down the road and getting hit by some stupid fuck and get sued for no legit reason. There is no way in hell I would put my ass in a plain in the US, knowing that there is a potential looser that has his/her brain turned off, just to switch it back on and drag me to the cleaners because she/he followed me to close under canopy and had a shaky landing and got fouled up. It seems to me, that sueing people in the US has become more of a sport for people who have shit for brains. I'm gonna sit in my bunker and wait for the hate missiles to hit home... ... .. .how high can you fly with broken wings ... life's a journey not a destination Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #89 September 25, 2002 Quotehow many of you are still going to call him a dumb-ass darwin award nominee? Well....He may not be a dumbass but just like skydiving was he NOT accepting some amount of risk by standing out there. Whether he asked permission or not is really somewhat of a moot point IMHO. I know that flying in, walking around, exiting, etc an Otter can be quite dangerous. I know of a guy that walked into a prop and was killed instantly. It's a risk we all accept but some want to cry when they lose the game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #90 September 25, 2002 QuoteHere is a thought - if someone knows where this lawsuit is filed - I will get a copy of it and post it here.....if there is no lawsuit - it sounds like a bunch of guys are spinning your wheels for no reason..... Cool! Everybody, quick... install Acrobat. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #91 September 25, 2002 QuoteIt seems to me, that sueing people in the US has become more of a sport for people who have shit for brains. QuoteI'm gonna sit in my bunker and wait for the hate missiles to hit home... I don't think you'll get any missles. Most likely just agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Phil 0 #92 September 25, 2002 Clay, why is it, that everybody is complaining about it but is not willing to do something about it? I mean the US calls itself a democracy - I don't see where that would fit in, but if that would be the case, the people would have the power to change things... I mean you have been outside the US, doesn't it scare you sometimes to see how people just stop taking responsibilities for their on life and depend on others to do it for them? ... .. .how high can you fly with broken wings ... life's a journey not a destination Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WFFC 1 #93 September 25, 2002 QuoteIn fact the city just gave the organizers some money to help offset advertising fees from last year. To pry cash out of this city is an impressive feat, they want the WFFC to return. This was actually part of the one year contract the WFFC signed with the city. If the city was impressed with the event, the city would pay 10k for the advertising/promotion/etc. that the WFFC shelled out. The Mayor of Rantoul authorized the city administrator (I believe) to enter into longterm contract negotiations with the WFFC. Bluez~~~ Michael Webmaster Michael@Freefall.com----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WFFC 1 #94 September 25, 2002 QuoteI gave away a TON of pullup cords to kids.. lol That was fun!! Definately agree. I went through 2 sharpies doing autographs. Kinda fun being larger than life to kids. They are the future and they'll always remember the skydiver who signed their shirt.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,146 #95 September 25, 2002 Quote Couple that with the FAA's investigation report, and the fact that they did not emergency-suspend the pilot's license, it would seem fairly clear that the mistake is at the feet of the deceased. Again, no lawyer here, so correct me if I'm wrong all you lurking lawyers... Ciels and Pinks- Michele NTSB reports are privileged are may not be used in evidence in civil lawsuits. So it doesn't matter what NTSB says about responsibility, the court will never get to hear it. As for skydivers not suing skydivers, I mostly agree but would make an exception if the act that caused the damage or injury were deliberate or malicious or criminal (such as tampering with a rig). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #96 September 25, 2002 QuoteIf it says anything....the FAA and NTSB are investigating and they did NOT take enforcement action against the pilot of the helicopter. Had they thought there was an obvious problem with what happened then they could have emergency suspended his certificate to keep him from operating. They chose not to. I think that speaks volumes. I would imagine that the WFFC would be back at Rantoul next year same bat time, same bat place. And that is just my own personal opinion. Chris 100% agreement. The City of Rantoul loved us and can't wait for us to come back, despite the fatalaties. The local TV and print media was very non-biased in their coverage, and all the locals I met were very happy to see so much positive activity come to their town. I think we're more popular than the "Driftwood Festival" in Kankakee IL., aren't we? I predict the spectator/skydiver turnout will increase next year now that everyone gets used to their new home. Maybe next year it won't be so humid. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #97 September 25, 2002 QuoteEven if it is a long walk back. I hope that next year a shuttle is provided to get us back to the main area. It was great fun landing down there and talking to the people; I even got to sign autographs (on Golden Knight posters no less)!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WFFC 1 #98 September 25, 2002 QuoteWow...that's pretty cool to know that something that brings me so much joy also gives so much to the locals. Next year....I'll be swooping the shit out of that spectator fence. Even if it is a long walk back. When the questionaire is either online or in the mail, make the suggestion that one of the larger 6 seater golfcarts be made available for transportation back and forth to the spectator area, this would be in addition to the one used for the tandems...----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WFFC 1 #99 September 25, 2002 QuoteHere is a thought - if someone knows where this lawsuit is filed - I will get a copy of it and post it here.....if there is no lawsuit - it sounds like a bunch of guys are spinning your wheels for no reason..... I'm awaiting a phone call to let me know...stand by... Michael Webmaster Michael@Freefall.com----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #100 September 25, 2002 Quote When the questionaire is either online or in the mail, make the suggestion that one of the larger 6 seater golfcarts be made available for transportation back and forth to the spectator area, this would be in addition to the one used for the tandems... Oh man... just don't let those golf carts get close to me on mah bi-cycle! ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 4 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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TequilaGirl 0 #87 September 25, 2002 Here is a thought - if someone knows where this lawsuit is filed - I will get a copy of it and post it here.....if there is no lawsuit - it sounds like a bunch of guys are spinning your wheels for no reason..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil 0 #88 September 25, 2002 As my wife just got back from the US, she being US citizen, it was interesting to hear her comment about the fact, that she was scared driving down the road and getting hit by some stupid fuck and get sued for no legit reason. There is no way in hell I would put my ass in a plain in the US, knowing that there is a potential looser that has his/her brain turned off, just to switch it back on and drag me to the cleaners because she/he followed me to close under canopy and had a shaky landing and got fouled up. It seems to me, that sueing people in the US has become more of a sport for people who have shit for brains. I'm gonna sit in my bunker and wait for the hate missiles to hit home... ... .. .how high can you fly with broken wings ... life's a journey not a destination Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #89 September 25, 2002 Quotehow many of you are still going to call him a dumb-ass darwin award nominee? Well....He may not be a dumbass but just like skydiving was he NOT accepting some amount of risk by standing out there. Whether he asked permission or not is really somewhat of a moot point IMHO. I know that flying in, walking around, exiting, etc an Otter can be quite dangerous. I know of a guy that walked into a prop and was killed instantly. It's a risk we all accept but some want to cry when they lose the game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #90 September 25, 2002 QuoteHere is a thought - if someone knows where this lawsuit is filed - I will get a copy of it and post it here.....if there is no lawsuit - it sounds like a bunch of guys are spinning your wheels for no reason..... Cool! Everybody, quick... install Acrobat. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #91 September 25, 2002 QuoteIt seems to me, that sueing people in the US has become more of a sport for people who have shit for brains. QuoteI'm gonna sit in my bunker and wait for the hate missiles to hit home... I don't think you'll get any missles. Most likely just agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil 0 #92 September 25, 2002 Clay, why is it, that everybody is complaining about it but is not willing to do something about it? I mean the US calls itself a democracy - I don't see where that would fit in, but if that would be the case, the people would have the power to change things... I mean you have been outside the US, doesn't it scare you sometimes to see how people just stop taking responsibilities for their on life and depend on others to do it for them? ... .. .how high can you fly with broken wings ... life's a journey not a destination Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #93 September 25, 2002 QuoteIn fact the city just gave the organizers some money to help offset advertising fees from last year. To pry cash out of this city is an impressive feat, they want the WFFC to return. This was actually part of the one year contract the WFFC signed with the city. If the city was impressed with the event, the city would pay 10k for the advertising/promotion/etc. that the WFFC shelled out. The Mayor of Rantoul authorized the city administrator (I believe) to enter into longterm contract negotiations with the WFFC. Bluez~~~ Michael Webmaster Michael@Freefall.com----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #94 September 25, 2002 QuoteI gave away a TON of pullup cords to kids.. lol That was fun!! Definately agree. I went through 2 sharpies doing autographs. Kinda fun being larger than life to kids. They are the future and they'll always remember the skydiver who signed their shirt.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #95 September 25, 2002 Quote Couple that with the FAA's investigation report, and the fact that they did not emergency-suspend the pilot's license, it would seem fairly clear that the mistake is at the feet of the deceased. Again, no lawyer here, so correct me if I'm wrong all you lurking lawyers... Ciels and Pinks- Michele NTSB reports are privileged are may not be used in evidence in civil lawsuits. So it doesn't matter what NTSB says about responsibility, the court will never get to hear it. As for skydivers not suing skydivers, I mostly agree but would make an exception if the act that caused the damage or injury were deliberate or malicious or criminal (such as tampering with a rig). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #96 September 25, 2002 QuoteIf it says anything....the FAA and NTSB are investigating and they did NOT take enforcement action against the pilot of the helicopter. Had they thought there was an obvious problem with what happened then they could have emergency suspended his certificate to keep him from operating. They chose not to. I think that speaks volumes. I would imagine that the WFFC would be back at Rantoul next year same bat time, same bat place. And that is just my own personal opinion. Chris 100% agreement. The City of Rantoul loved us and can't wait for us to come back, despite the fatalaties. The local TV and print media was very non-biased in their coverage, and all the locals I met were very happy to see so much positive activity come to their town. I think we're more popular than the "Driftwood Festival" in Kankakee IL., aren't we? I predict the spectator/skydiver turnout will increase next year now that everyone gets used to their new home. Maybe next year it won't be so humid. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #97 September 25, 2002 QuoteEven if it is a long walk back. I hope that next year a shuttle is provided to get us back to the main area. It was great fun landing down there and talking to the people; I even got to sign autographs (on Golden Knight posters no less)!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #98 September 25, 2002 QuoteWow...that's pretty cool to know that something that brings me so much joy also gives so much to the locals. Next year....I'll be swooping the shit out of that spectator fence. Even if it is a long walk back. When the questionaire is either online or in the mail, make the suggestion that one of the larger 6 seater golfcarts be made available for transportation back and forth to the spectator area, this would be in addition to the one used for the tandems...----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #99 September 25, 2002 QuoteHere is a thought - if someone knows where this lawsuit is filed - I will get a copy of it and post it here.....if there is no lawsuit - it sounds like a bunch of guys are spinning your wheels for no reason..... I'm awaiting a phone call to let me know...stand by... Michael Webmaster Michael@Freefall.com----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #100 September 25, 2002 Quote When the questionaire is either online or in the mail, make the suggestion that one of the larger 6 seater golfcarts be made available for transportation back and forth to the spectator area, this would be in addition to the one used for the tandems... Oh man... just don't let those golf carts get close to me on mah bi-cycle! ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
