What is the future of WFFC?

[skybytch 273]

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HE isn't suing.. His family is right??

I didn't read the waiver I signed at WFFC (yeah, I know, I'm a dumb shit). And I am definitely NOT a lawyer. But every waiver that I have read has included the heirs/estate of the person signing it in the "won't sue" portion. If the WFFC waiver included this language, and the brother in law is an heir or involved with the estate, then imho he doesn't have any right to sue - the deceased waived that right for himself and his entire family when he initialed and signed that pile of papers.

I don't think the brother in law is entitled to "his day in court" - if he signed the same waiver for himself that the deceased signed, I'd assume that he fully understood the risks involved in both skydiving and being around aircraft - language along those lines is also included in every skydiving related waiver I've read.

[fool 0]

yeah, I read that, I guess I put the wrong connotation on it. I appologize for the misenterpretation, it just sounded bitter and/or condescending in my head.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[rhino 0]

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Anything involving a child has _nothing_ to do with a situation where an adult does something stupid. A father fighting for his son is trying to do right by a minor, someone who cannot yet decide for himself what is best for him. A family suing someone else is not trying to do right by anyone other than an adult, an adult who _agreed_ that he was in a dangerous area, took a risk, and paid the ultimate price.

Maybe it wasn't the best analogy but I tried. A last stand if you will..

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A family suing someone else is not trying to do right by anyone other than an adult, an adult who _agreed_ that he was in a dangerous area, took a risk, and paid the ultimate price. Suing after his death is doing him a disservice. In a way it's the ultimate (and final) putdown. "Well, he was incompetent to sign that waiver! He didn't understand, he wasn't smart enough to know a helicopter could cut you in half, he _certainly_ wouldn't have done it if he knew that."

No arguments...

i still hope the law suit is a rumor. If their is a suit I don't agree with it at all. But at the same time I won't judge them for it.

Rhino

[AndyMan 7]

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If I'm not mistaken, the waiver also takes away the right for family members to sue...

Waivers are generally good things, I'm sure they cut down the number of lawsuits by huge numbers.... that said, in a case of gross negligence, or even criminal negligence they will NOT hold up. If an otter crashes killing everyone on board and the pilot turns out to have a cronic cocaine problem, the waiver will not stand. If a tandem goes in and the TM has a .89 blood/alcohol count, the waiver will not stand. The waiver will stand for most "standard" jumping accidents.

Anybody sueing will have to show gross negligence to get around the waiver. In this case, I would imagine they'll argue it was entirely the pilots fault, that he was being reckless, that flying like that close to the ground is just plain irresponsible.

Hopefuly all the evidence shows that wasn't the case. Every story has two sides, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with somebody presenting the other side. Impartial juries and judges will decide where in the middle the truth lies. That's how justice systems work, and the process itself is not a bad thing. It would only be a bad thing if innocent people get hung out to dry, which despite what the media tells us, usually doesn't happen.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AggieDave 6]

Its not a "Waiver" skydivers need to realize that. You are not able to actually "Waiver" your rights, a smart laywer will chew you up in a courtroom if you say that.

It is a "Release of liability." There is a big difference when dealing with the courts.

Actually, I'd like to see the asshole counter sued for his dumbshit relative putting all of those jumpers, pilot and aircraft in danger!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[fool 0]

Very good point, it's kind of gotten lost that this guy was also a jumper, and signed the same waiver. I don't see how he can (with a clear conscience that is,) waive his own rights, and think that his brother in law doing the same thing doesn't matter. I would think that black balling him would be an appropriate measure, as if he's going to sue over the loss of a family member in our sport, who know's what instructions he's left with his family in the event that he were to go in. Every action has it's consequences, and just as he obviously didn't consider the consequences of the waiver, he also hasn't considered the consequences of the law suit. But that's just me, I could be mistaken.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[rhino 0]

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I don't think the brother in law is entitled to "his day in court" - if he signed the same waiver for himself that the deceased signed, I'd assume that he fully understood the risks involved in both skydiving and being around aircraft - language along those lines is also included in every skydiving related waiver I've read.

This is difficult.. I both agree and disagree.. Trying to stay sympathetic to the family understanding their loss while being angry that I was ALSO almost killed being on the helicopter and that I wouldn't even considering suing.

Damn!! Damn!!

Why couldn't he have been laying down if he wanted pictures that bad??

Rhino

[skybytch 273]

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It is a "Release of liability." There is a big difference when dealing with the courts.

True, but it's a whole lot easier and faster to type "waiver" than it is to type "release of liability."

[AggieDave 6]

Yes, but using the word "waiver" is wrong...we need to pull the skydiving world away from that paradigm.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhino 0]

lol

[fool 0]

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Waivers are generally good things, I'm sure they cut down the number of lawsuits by huge numbers.... that said, in a case of gross negligence, or even criminal negligence they will NOT hold up.

I'm not sure about all waivers, but the ones I signed state that I nor others mave the right to sue even if due to negligence, of the dz, pilot, etc, etc, etc...

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[AndyMan 7]

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I'm not sure about all waivers, but the ones I signed state that I nor others mave the right to sue even if due to negligence, of the dz, pilot, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah, and when you park your car it says on the back of the ticket that they're not responsible if your car is broken into. That doesn't make it the case.

In the case of gross negligence, the waiver is not worth the paper its printed on.

(I am not a lawyer, but I play on one TV)

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rhino 0]

Andy is correct...

[fool 0]

what do you know...ya learn something new everyday after all.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[rhino 0]

I think the next step is VIDEO waivers... With elementary questions like..

1. You do realize that if you step in front of a helicopter blade you will die and your family cannot sue right??

2. You do agree that if you hook yourself into the pond and die that it is your fault and no one in your family can sue right??

That is what I see next...

Rhino

[skybytch 273]

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This is difficult..

Rob, I really have only the vaguest idea of how hard this has all been for you - I've never had to deal with anything like this and I hope I never do. I wish he'd laid down to get his pictures, I wish that you had been on a different load or on the other side of the aircraft so you wouldn't have had to see it. I think we all wish it had never happened, whether we were at WFFC or not.

I feel for you and everyone else who was on that load, for the family, for Rod and his crew, for Don and the entire WFFC "family", for everyone who witnessed the incident, for everyone who helped search for missing body parts... I just think that lawsuits aren't going to help anyone in this situation. The only thing that will make it better for anyone involved is time.

[fool 0]

I don't know that it's right, or morally correct, but that made me laugh really hard.

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[Spy38W 0]

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Imagine how much worse off they'll feel when they find out that they've bankrupted the plaintiff and destroyed another life. Imagine how much worse off they'll be when they get the plaintiffs costs awarded against them[2].

[2] Dunno how it works there, here if you sue and lose you get to pay the plaintiffs costs, ALL of 'em, plus your own. The plaintiff may well then sue for damage to reputation, business time lost, lost opportunity, punitive damages, costs, etc.

Am I confused here?

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plain·tiff Pronunciation Key (plntf)
n. Law
The party that institutes a suit in a court.

--
Hook high, flare on time

[rhino 0]

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I just think that lawsuits aren't going to help anyone in this situation. The only thing that will make it better for anyone involved is time.

I couldn't have said it better myself.. Well done Lisa...

And God, it feels better at least talking about it...

[MarkF 0]

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Am I confused here?

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plain·tiff Pronunciation Key (plntf)
n. Law

Nah it's me that's confused. Where I say plaintiff I mean the "sue-ee" as opposed to the "sue-er". I'll edit the other post.

In my defence I've been working on a BIG disaster recover plan for about 3 months and just now I run into the very much dreaded corporate politics. GRRR....

Ooroo
Mark F...

[fasterfaller 0]

***How can you sign away your families right to sue??

[Zennie 0]

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If on the waiver it says that you do not allow your family to have the right to sue on your behalf, and you signed it before you died....I kinda think that would cover it.

IAAL (OK retired, but still a lawyer). You're half right.

You can sign away your family's right to sue on your behalf. That is, for injuries to you on behalf of your estate.

But that doesn't completely cover it. You cannot sign away anybody else's right to sue on their own behalf. So the family can sue for their emotional trauma, loss of consortium, etc. etc.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just clarifying the legal effect of a waiver (or even a will).

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[lotzafun 0]

The family of the deceased are the only people that is being disrespectful to him. I would be humiliated (flipping in the grave) if my family came after anyone in the skydiving community in the event I went in. And for that person to be a SKYDIVER is unreal. Save some form of peace for the deceased and let HIM R.I.P. If they want/need money, maybe they should have set up a benefit. I have heard the family is going to sue everyoned everything but the corn. On rec:skydiving, Gary (brother-in-law) basically called the pilot a murderer. That is a pretty big accusation and Gary, you just ruined all credibility as far as I am concerned.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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A man was killed in a horrible way. A family was TORN apart. Ripped to schreds by a terrible misshap.

A very colorful pair of metaphors, rhino...

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[Zennie 0]

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In the case of gross negligence, the waiver is not worth the paper its printed on.

Yeah Andy is right. Waivers don't cover gross neglicence or intentional misconduct.

Actually, as the law synapses start firing in the brain again (man it's been a while), in many states you can't even contract away simple negligence.

However, the fact that you sign a waiver in eight gazillion places which has 80 point type that says YOU CAN GET INJURED OR DIE on practically every page does make a pretty good case for assumption of risk (as if the fact that you're jumping out of an airplane itself isn't obvious enough.. or in this case hanging around helicopter tail rotors).

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon