Here's a little story about use of force...

[PhillyKev 0]

I'm not going to tell you who this happened to because there are possilbe legal remifications. Let's just say it was a "friend". Let's call him PhillyKen

Last Saturday night one of the servers where PhillyKen works started broadcasting bad packets and hosed the network. So he goes into work, fixes the problem and heads home around 12:30am. He walks past this shady corner where some dealers and prostitutes hang out. It's not late for a Saturday and there are people out so it's not too bad walking past here at this time, usually.

PhillyKen gets a block past there and gets shoved from behind. One of the guys that he recognizes as hanging out on that corner all the time shoved him and as he spins around grabs him by the collar and demands his money. PhillyKen is in a pissed off mood, just leaving a pain in the ass problem at work, just found out another big name in skydiving bounced and didn't want to take this shit. PhillyKen eyes the guy up, he doesn't have any weapons in his hand and looks like he's not in full control of his faculties. PhillyKen makes like he's going for his wallet but instead pulls out his tactical folder and *blink* the guy's running away. PhillyKen thinks he slashed at the arm grabbing him and tried to follow up to the body but the guy was gone just like that and the adrenaline washes out the details.

Legally...PhillyKen can be locked up for assault with a deadly weapon because he used what could be deadly force against an unarmed person. But PhillyKen doesn't know if the guy was armed or not, he just didn't see a weapon. The guy could have had one ready and he didn't want to take that chance.

BTW...PhillyKen didn't have any money on him, and thought that telling this guy that would most likely result in him producing a weapon if he did have one and PhillyKen wanted to avoid that.

PhillyKen didn't report this to the police. He could have lied and said he saw a weapon but didn't want to go that route and didn't want to risk getting in trouble himself for protecting himself.

Remember, PhillyKen recognizes the guy because he passes that corner every day. The guy might recognize PhillyKen as well. Early this morning he hears voices outside, looks out the window and sees a group of guys saying "this is the place" and "that dude's gonna get fucked up". Could be coincidental, or half dreaming, or paranoia. But PhillyKen isn't taking any chances and is now taking a cab the 4 blocks home where he happens to keep his firearms. PhillyKen will continue doing that until his permit to carry a concealed firearm arrives.

**disclaimer - this story is fictional and any similarity to actual events or people is completely coincidental.

So...I'm thinking those of you that say those cops in La used excessive force would say the same thing about this fictional situation. Wrong to use a weapon against an unarmed thug. I'd like to know how you'd do in that situation. Not what you speculate you do, but when you have a similar experience, let me know how it works out.

[diablopilot 2]

If I were PhillyKev I think I would wish that I had been able to bop said thug on the head with a large blunt object to make an example of him to the thugs friends.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 3,107]

>I'd like to know how you'd do in that situation.

I'll tell you what I did, although it's not quite the same.

In college I used to spar a lot with a friend of mine, Dave. We started in our Tae Kwon Do class and it sort of continued whenever we were bored. He'd lie in wait like that guy Kato from the Pink Panther movies, trying to get the jump on me. We got a lot of shit from our friends for it.

One weekend we went down to NYC for new year's eve. We were walking near Times Square, looking at the sights, and Dave jumped on me from behind again. I shifted my weight, went to throw him - and he went flying. I immediately felt bad, because Dave would inevitably just drop and go for my legs when I tried that, and here he was about to hit the sidewalk. It was then I noticed it wasn't Dave. He got up, looked at his friends who had been working the crowd with him, and ran away.

It was all over in about a second, and the people I was with all wanted to know what had happened, and I wasn't sure myself. I have a feeling that my action simply made me a less-easy target, and thus it was easier for them to try mugging someone else. I also know that I am very glad I didn't have a weapon that could be taken in that crowd, since at least one other person in our group had money taken from an inside jacket pocket that night.

[Zenister 0]

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>I'd like to know how you'd do in that situation.

I'll tell you what I did, although it's not quite the same.

In college I used to spar a lot with a friend of mine, Dave. We started in our Tae Kwon Do class and it sort of continued whenever we were bored. He'd lie in wait like that guy Kato from the Pink Panther movies, trying to get the jump on me. We got a lot of shit from our friends for it.

lol...

i very nearly got thrown out of college for exactly that..slightly drunk one night walking out of the art studios "jeph" grabbed me across the neck (we did the same sort of thing, some of the ambushes were epic) and threw him across the foyer..well jeph knew how to roll, this guy (one of the baseball players who had a rather loud argument with me about his ex girlfriend several days before) did not and broke his arm and 3 ribs when he hit the concrete pillar and the floor.. both of us ended up in front of the dean, and the baseball coach was livid, but since there were 2 witnesses outside that saw him grab me...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Jib 0]

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Legally...PhillyKen can be locked up for assault with a deadly weapon because he used what could be deadly force against an unarmed person. But PhillyKen doesn't know if the guy was armed or not, he just didn't see a weapon. The guy could have had one ready and he didn't want to take that chance.

Laws vary. In some states, shooting a guy trying to commit robbery could be legal.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[PhillyKev 0]

Yeah...not in the state he's from though. There you are only justified using deadly force when in fear of imminent death or grievous injury. Can not be used to stop a property crime or prevent escape from a felony.

[wmw999 2,584]

PhillyKen's biggest problem is the possibility that "dude" and his buds will, in fact, recognize him and decide to apply a can of group whoopass. The effect on PhillyKen right now is the cost to his pocketbook while he takes the cab, and in the future if he carries concealed, his wondering if he's going to make a bad decision in a similar situation.

At least that's how I see it.

Were I PhillyKen, I'd change my hair style and clothing style for awhile, and wait for enough of their brain cells to die off. And maybe leave with someone for awhile, no matter what else might be in my pocket.

Either that or go up to the guy and say "Hi, how are you this fine day" in a cheerful and weirdo-sounding voice the next time I passed by. With a large, mean-looking friend.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Stacy 0]

I bet if PhillyKen had sponsored that starving child that bad karma wouldn't have led to that situation.

[airtwardo 7]

Suggestion-

Next time carry two Folders...

Place the cheap one on the biggest piece what's left of his torso!

I am glad to hear that Ken,
is aware of his surroundings enough to have dealt safely with such an unexpected situation...

Hypothetically that is...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[freeflir29 0]

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There you are only justified using deadly force when in fear of imminent death or grievous injury

Let's talk about a little word called ARTICULATION. See....when a cop shoots someone they must be able to articulate the reasons why they took that action. A civilian has to do the same thing but they have FAR more lee way because you are "untrained." If a Police Officer gets in a fist fight with someone....and begins to lose....it's pretty easy to articulate that he felt the bad guy may take his weapn and kill him if he were incapacitated. So...anyway...it's all about articulation. This might let you have a better understanding as well.


//www.fletc.gov/directiv/91-01a.pdf

[fasterfaller 0]

You should have beat his ass and called the cops . The biggest mistake you made was not calling the po-lice . The first person to tell their story is most likely the one that does not get in trouble .

The thing that kept my brother from going to jail in a dispute with a rent a pig was the fact that he was the first one to call the cops .

[PhillyKev 0]

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The biggest mistake you made was not calling the po-lice . The first person to tell their story is most likely the one that does not get in trouble .

He knows that. And he also know what Clay posted. He didn't think he had the presence of mind at the time to speak to the police and properly articulate what his fears were, without lying, and without getting himself in trouble. Two days later he knew exactly what he should have said to the police had he called them right away. But calling them several days later wouldn't look to good either. So for now just going to be extra cautious and hope it blows over.

Approaching him with a group of friends as posted above is not a good idea. That guy might be thinking the same way PhillyKen is now that he's been on the receiving end of a knife. If I were him I'd be carrying a gun.

However PhillyKen is not without some very large and mean friends and has some very close relatives in powerful positions in city politics. The blue collar union side of city politics. His friends have been made aware of the situation and should anything happen, PhillyKen at least knows that retribution would be swift and painful.