those damn Muslims strike again

[freakydiver 0]

No doubt!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[skreamer 1]

You missed my point entirely, I don't follow your thinking at all. You say the Muslims stole the land from the Jews, I turned your argument around and said that your Spanish ancestors stole the land from the Native Americans. Then you launched into some obtuse rambling blether about 'percentages' and languages and other nonsense.

Let me put this in terms you can understand : I share a house in London with an English person, a Malaysian, a Syrian and an Australian. The fact that I share a house with a Muslim and a Buddhist is not something that really ever comes to mind, it is a total non-issue. They are my friends and that is all there is to it.

Judging people solely on the basis of their religion is wrong.

[Laurel 0]

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Ok back to the topic.

Ice cream and boobies?

Ice cream - yeah!
Boobies - I've got a set; no need to get excited.

.....................................................................
PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074
My Pink M

[wmw999 2,588]

Wil, some folks have to look no farther than themselves for all of the information they might ever need. Nothing you say can fit into their schema, therefore it's irrelevant.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Steel 0]

I understood what you said. My point was that you couldn't complain about what my ancestors stole because it was stolen from us by the British almost imediately anyway. Then I went off on a tangent. It started by proving that my ancestors were nicer than the British (offering up as evidence that we didn't kill as many natives). Then I really went off on a tangent bragging about my background having all the best roots. But no I didn't miss your point.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[wmw999 2,588]

OK, so if I ask the same question about the Spanish and the new world, will you answer instead of going off on a tangent? I'm of Swedish ancestry; my grandparents came to the US and bought houses from other people who had titles to them, and the Vikings mostly went back home long before any English or Spanish even began raiding.

The asker doesn't matter; the question does.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skreamer 1]

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My point was that you couldn't complain about what my ancestors stole because it was stolen from us by the British almost imediately anyway.

So the fact that what you stole was stolen from you almost immediately afterwards makes it OK?

I've got news for you pal, if you go out and steal a car and I then steal that car from you, you are still a thief. But of course in your world you are only a thief if you happen to be a Muslim...

[EricaH 0]

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You say the Muslims stole the land from the Jews, I turned your argument around and said that your Spanish ancestors stole the land from the Native Americans.

The person/nationality/race/religon is rare that has not trampled on the rights of another. It is about finding where your peace can come from & learning to focus & live life off of that peace.

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it is a total non-issue. They are my friends and that is all there is to it.

Judging people solely on the basis of their religion is wrong.

[skreamer 1]

GOOSE FRABAAA, GOOSE FRABAAA....

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[NeedToJump 0]

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It started by proving that my ancestors were nicer than the British (offering up as evidence that we didn't kill as many natives).

Turkey Hill Philadelphia Style Coffee ice cream is really good too. If I can't get Hagan Daaz I go for that (you also get more.)

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Laurel 0]

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It started by proving that my ancestors were nicer than the British (offering up as evidence that we didn't kill as many natives).

Turkey Hill Philadelphia Style Coffee ice cream is really good too. If I can't get Hagan Daaz I go for that (you also get more.)

I love how you quoted a real part of this thread and made a comment about ice cream. This is so making me laugh.

.....................................................................
PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074
My Pink M

[Steel 0]

I am not sure I understand your question, but the truth I find this topic somewhat humorous. It goes back what I posted several posts ago. See Spain discovered America in 1492. I am not sure when the Vikings were here but it was before that. I will admit I do not remember off hand the exact date of the Spanish Armada battle but I do know it was in the 15th or early 16th century. See the world was different. Imperialism was normal. Everybody was doing it. Even slavery went along with this. But as western civilizations evolved so did their belief in the value of human life. As Americans we have created Indian reservations in efforts to make good for a bad we know we once did. Giving back all our land would be ridiculous. It wouldn't be fair anyway because the true value of America is not the soil or the natural resources. Its the ideals that were created by the constitution. It is a system extremely similar to the British system of government. The house of commons the house of represetatives. Still it was an improvement and a very needed one at that.
People who often wish to take claim in the U.S. (the Natives in this case), may not realise that if it wasn't for the Brits that came here then America would not be so desired. It would be a totally different place, probably not the world power it is.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[freakydiver 0]

Humans will still kill themselves off. And in all honesty, I would prefer to live in just about every other country I've ever been in compared to the United States because of the fact that we've got a bunch of blinder wearing soccermoms running around clueless to the fact that their 5 mpg kid hauling machines are really causing a great deal of turmoil in the rest of the world.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[NeedToJump 0]

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It started by proving that my ancestors were nicer than the British (offering up as evidence that we didn't kill as many natives).

Turkey Hill Philadelphia Style Coffee ice cream is really good too. If I can't get Hagan Daaz I go for that (you also get more.)

I love how you quoted a real part of this thread and made a comment about ice cream. This is so making me laugh.

It's because I care about the children, I don't want them growing up in a world deprived of ice cream..

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[wmw999 2,588]

Bruno, the US sits on some extremely desirable land. It's fertile through the vast majority of the country, there is a lot of weather that naturally supports the growth of agricultural products and livestock, which is how many people's US ancestors survived. The fact that many of the people who settled often had to put forth a whole lot of effort to get here meant that a significant number of pushy people ended up here. Pushy people often get ahead. Of course, it's often at the expense of others, right?

If Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them 4000 years ago, then why doesn't this land belong to the Native Americans? That's the question.

Cultural context matters in that it absolves individuals of some responsibility in actions that we would consider reprehensible now. But that, too, goes across the board -- it also absolves those individuals who live in cultures different from ours, just as it absolves people in the US who don't understand that the rest of the world doesn't have to think that way.

What defines what is good now? Is it a religion? Which one? If it's values that are above and beyond religion, then why shouldn't those values be applied to individuals, rather than to whole peoples at a time?

Dang, that was a long and discombobulated rant. But it was fun!

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[EricaH 0]

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I would prefer to live in just about every other country I've ever been in compared to the United States because of the fact that we've got a bunch of blinder wearing soccermoms running around clueless to the fact that their 5 mpg kid hauling machines are really causing a great deal of turmoil in the rest of the world.

[freakydiver 0]

Word to that - I only go to countries that I find interesting. I'll say this though - Colorado and Utah are still two of my favorite places in the whole wide world. So much backcountry to explore to get away from the soccer moms!!!!!!! Always a dillema - go hiking or go jumping, hiking? jumping?? Got a coin to flip???

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[EricaH 0]

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If Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them 4000 years ago, then why doesn't this land belong to the Native Americans? That's the question.

Imagine this... what if Native Americans had moved all over the world. They built up a huge population. Then after some huge war, someone told them to move back into North America. Imagine that! It's the same principal.

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Cultural context matters in that it absolves individuals of some responsibility in actions that we would consider reprehensible now. But that, too, goes across the board -- it also absolves those individuals who live in cultures different from ours, just as it absolves people in the US who don't understand that the rest of the world doesn't have to think that way.

What defines what is good now? Is it a religion? Which one? If it's values that are above and beyond religion, then why shouldn't those values be applied to individuals, rather than to whole peoples at a time?

just so good, i wanted to see it again & have others rea read it.
Thank you Wendy!

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Kinaa 0]

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See the world was different. Imperialism was normal. Everybody was doing it.

LOL
Imperialism was normal? To whom? I'm shure it was not normal for opressed people.

[wmw999 2,588]

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Everybody was doing it

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opressed people

Just remember that "everybody" really means "everybody like me, because that's all that really matters anyway" in this context. It clears up a whole lot of things.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,116]

>Giving back all our land would be ridiculous.

I just hope you can see that there are other people, both Arab and Jew, who share exactly that sentiment, and for very similar reasons to yours. It is their home, not just a bunch of soil.

[Steel 0]

Ok first of all we are in disagreement about what makes the U.S. great. You speak of how the original settlers survived. I speak of what values they created. (capitalism, religious freedom, freedom of speech, you know the bill of rights). Whether you realize this or not it does not exist in the rest of the world not to the same degree. The degree to which it does exist in certain other countries was mainly to them learning how well it worked here.
About Israel that is not about wanting a country with a good system. Its not even about wanting a country with good natural resources. Its about a war over the belief that it contains a holyland. (Jerusalem) They all claim it. So that is how its different we (U.S. citizens) would be talking about what we created. They are talking about what is their so-called god given land. And because its about religion (a religion which promotes it) they are much more vicious.
As for what is good that can be answered many ways. Even if you asked which country is good it could be answered many ways. But the most selfless (kindest one) I would definately say is the U.S., perhaps too kind. I think religion is good as long as it doesn't get out of control. If I didn't know anything else about my rigger and all I had to go by was that he was a good Christion or Jew then that would be a comfort to me. If he was a muslim I would be scared that he might want to kill me and I probably wouldn't give him my rig to pack.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Steel 0]

To add to that about the rigger example, In a Jersey town where I grew up on September 11.2001, on roof tops, groups of Muslims were observed celebrating. Probably the same muslims that owned the electronic stores from which I bought much electronic equipment when I lived there. Many of them I knew by name and thought of as friends. I don't think it went through their mind that a year before I was working 1/2 mile away from the world trade center and that I was in and out of the world trade center weekly. Actually I don't think they cared.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 3,116]

>In a Jersey town where I grew up on September 11.2001, on roof
>tops, groups of Muslims were observed celebrating.

And when we started bombing Iraq, Americans were celebrating. There were posters, right here on this board, who were very happy to see it start.

[Steel 0]

yes because we were protecting ourselves from another September 11th and doing the Iraqi people a favor by getting rid of and oppressive dictator for them. Or are you telling me that you equade our mission for liberation of Iraq, with the use of our precision bombs, to that horrific massacre that took place in the world trade center?

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.