WMD's accounted for

[bodypilot90 0]

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FYI...in press conference last night, GW said that our troops will be in Iraq for at least 5 years. He did clarify though that we're not occupiers or nation builders.

How long were we in Japan after WW2?

[bodypilot90 0]

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Man, it must gall you to no end to consider that Blix, the UN, and France . . . were right.

You have it wrong, Iraq had WMD. France is really pissed about all the loans to SH they will never collect on.

[PhillyKev 0]

And if you'd like to see the real motivation behind the war in Iraq, take a look at http://www.newamericancentury.org/. These are the words and stated policies dating back to 1997 of: Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz

10 of the above are currently in the Bush cabinet, and one is his brother.

[billvon 3,095]

>You have it wrong, Iraq had WMD.

Of course they had them twenty years ago - we sold them to them! They just didn't have them earlier this year, when they were claiming they didn't have them. Funny how it turns out that the UN really did know better than Bush. I imagine that the next time we claim that some country has WMD's, no one (not even Blair, who is in trouble due to his WMD claims) will believe us.

>France is really pissed about all the loans to SH they will never collect on.

And Cheney is happy about all the money he will make from the war. At least someone came out ahead.

[lummy 4]

Iraq had WMD.

it looks to be just a matter of when..

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[PhillyKev 0]

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How long were we in Japan after WW2?

Umm...I seem to remember them attacking US soil. And don't feed me any lines about 9/11 and Iraq being behind it. Take a look at my link above to the Wolfowitz Cabal for proof from the horses mouth that the invasion of Iraq was on the agenda long before 9/11.

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Before the war, Rumsfeld openly disagreed with suggestions that several hundred thousands U.S. troops could be needed to stabilize a postwar Iraq.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/888057.asp?0si=-

[cloudseeker2001 0]

rolling iraq was the wrong thing to do............ever wonder wy those people had such a ruthless and unjust leader? because those people are themselves ruthless and unjust. saddam kept a balance(it may not have been what we consider balance, but then again, iraq does no have "american" culture). iraq will be very expensive and will be very unstable for a very long time. those people are rats, they act like rats and they should be treated as such......just as saddam treated them. i do not believe that iraq was a threat any more than any other country in the world, but the american people bought that crap from Bush who has lied through his teeth so his bussiness friends can make what they lost in the Enron scandle. i have never voted democratic or independent before, but i will not vote for Bush............... i have one word for the american people-SUCKERS!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[andy2 0]

its good to know that looters and thieves have them and not hussein.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[billvon 3,095]

> its good to know that looters and thieves have them and not hussein.

Uh, the nuclear materials were sealed under UN order in that vault and hadn't been tampered with until we broke it open. The WMD's seem to simply not exist. To claim that looters made off with tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and sarin . . . well, I suppose you can believe that if you like. Perhaps they could move them all to Iran, and so we could invade there! We could have a roving band of looters who deposit their massive stockpiles of WMD's in whichever country we want to invade next.

[andy2 0]

am I crazy or did your original post say that looters and thieves stole chemical weapons while we were invading?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[andy2 0]

oh I get it, youre being sarcastic.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[kmcguffee 0]

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Uh, the nuclear materials were sealed under UN order in that vault and hadn't been tampered with until we broke it open.

I believe I read a report a few days ago that the nuclear materials have been found and recovered.

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The WMD's seem to simply not exist.

That seems to be a fairly premature assessment to make. We've had about 2 months to look for them and have had a few other things on our minds while doing so. If you were arguing that the inspectors need more time don't you think you should have some patience and give your own country some time to look? Don't forget that we have found caches of suicide vests, terrorist camps, mobile bio labs, and known terrorists in Iraq. Why do you think those labs were mobile?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[sducoach 0]

Please explain then if you can why your pal mr. clinton bombed the famous "asprin factory" and why all of the demokat asked clinton to "take action"?

Ask yourself these questions.
(I'll see them in your quotes)

Are you safer now than you were?

Are the people of Afghanistan better off now?

Are the people of Iraq better off now?

Try to be honest............., if you can.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[juanesky 0]

There is a terrible misconception that WMD's are not in Iraq....

Well, for startes the most lethal biological weapons that SH has ever had and ever will are Uday and Qusai.....his sons.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[TheAnvil 0]

It never ceases to amaze me how these threads grow. Great points by PhillyKev, BillVon, Bodypilot, et al. I'll make a few remarks in this one post so as not to post whore.

New American Century
One word: scary.

French-Iraq Business Transactions

I think one of the WORST thing we could do as an occupying interim government is declare all Iraqi debts null and void. Some of them - those which were illegal under sanctions - could and should be declared null and void. However, there were many legitimate investments/debts/business transactions/etc that occurred between Saddam Hussein's governments and other governments. We as a nation have consistently lobbied AGAINST forgiving the massive debt of many poor third world nations - mainly because the reason most are in debt is because of their corrupt leaders/government and we don't want to reward bad behavior. Doing so in the case of Iraq would mark us as the biggest hypocrites of the age. Here, the Frenchies have a legitimate beef.

WMDs
We've only had a couple of months with many other missions/priorities conccurent to this one. I'm going to hold off judgement here, but remain skeptical. In Bush's defense, review his ultimatum speech. He referred to rape rooms, wars against neighboring states, and etc when telling Hussein he was on 48 hours notice. It wasn't just WMDs though they CERTAINLY were Bush's driving point throughout the entire build up.

Random Thoughts

I think that five years is far too low as far as the amount of time we'll have forces over there en masse. As a side effect to this war, I think we'll see a massive US presence in Iraq, a migration of forces from German bases to Taszar in Hungary and other former Eastern European nations - though we'll never totally end our presence in Deutschland in the forseeable future, and a much reduced US role in NATO - whose charter has arguably become obsolete.

The success of the operation in Iraq will be determined by how well we set up the government there and take care of the rebuilding process. In this regards, I think Newt Gingrich had a viable criticism of the Bush administration - look at how little we've rebuilt Afghanistan at this point.

Enough on this. I want to check out some other stuff. Interesting banter.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,095]

>Please explain then if you can why your pal mr. clinton bombed the
>famous "asprin factory" and why all of the demokat asked clinton to
>"take action"?

He's not my pal; I don't think he did a great job either. He tried to take out Bin Laden once, and he tried to get the Omnibus anti-terror act of 1995 passed. He could have done more.

Don't make the mistake that everyone is like you, and picks one side to decide is "right."

>Are you safer now than you were?

No, the CIA has assessed that we are at a higher risk for terrorist action now. Al Qaeda is active again, and we've created a whole new generation of terrorists who have good reason to hate the US. North Korea has nuclear weapons now and is working on ICBM's - and we've been largely ignoring them. Iran is working on nuclear weapons as well. We lost a bunch of nuclear material out of a vault we captured in Iraq.

If you think you are safer now than you were before 9/11, well, I guess it's good to feel safe.

>Are the people of Afghanistan better off now?

Not outside Kabul. Al Qaeda is operating in Afghanistan again, and the Taliban are coming back. Warlords run the provinces and do pretty much whatever they want. Women who don't wear veils get acid thrown in their faces. Constant fighting continues in some border areas.

The people in Kabul are pretty well off though. That's about 7% of the population.

>Are the people of Iraq better off now?

The ones we didn't kill? Not yet. They are largely without water and basic services, and looting is rampant. Fundamentalist Islamic mullahs are starting to exert influence. From the NY times:

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An iron curtain of fundamentalism risks falling over Iraq, with particularly grievous implications for girls and women. Already, almost every liquor shop in southern Iraq appears to have been forcibly closed. Here in Basra, Islamists have asked Basra University (unsuccessfully) to separate male and female students, and shopkeepers have put up signs like: "Sister, cover your hair." Many more women are giving in to the pressure and wearing the hijab head covering.

"Every woman is afraid," said Sarah Alak, a 22-year-old computer engineering student at Basra University. Ms. Alak never used to wear a hijab, but after Saddam fell her father asked her to wear one on the university campus, "just to avoid trouble."

--------------------------

So unless you translate a more repressive society, hunger and violence as "better off" then there are some problems over there.

[downwardspiral 0]

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those people are rats, they act like rats and they should be treated as such

can you say bigot? I'm ashamed of everyone who didn't have the courage to call him out on such an ignorant statement.

For those of you want to learn more about Iraq from a CIA case officer's point of view check this book out.
http://www.dlapr.lib.az.us/text/braille/booktalk1-03t.htm

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[nigel99 603]

As an engineer my main concern is that the "experts" from the UK/USA use the ingredients available in Iraq to "construct" a WMD. I do not mean this in a negative way - the engineers/scientists may be well intentioned. The problem comes when we move onto this "disbanded" notion. Does having sugar and diesel in your house mean that you were preparing to make a bomb. We all have the ingredients of a terrorist bomb at home we just don't have the knowledge. With the US/UK experts applying the knowledge and now looking for the "ingredients" of course evidence will be found - just how realistic it was that the Iraqies had the knowledge is questionable.

I have an Iraqi friend who left Iraq in 1974 and his comment was that "Saddam did not have weapons YET - but that Saddam would LIKE that weapons and WOULD use them and therefore it was worth getting rid of Saddam". That may be closer to the truth but makes liars out of Bush & Blair.

Last comment if you followed yesterdays questioning of Straw the UK foreign secretary he washed his hands of a significant raft of "intelligence" the dodgy dossier which was used to swing the parliamentary vote in favour of war - today the person who commissoned the report A Campbell is being questioned - Director of Communications for Blair. Campbell is an ex-political editor for a tabloid newspaper - what do you expect from such a person - spin, presentation and little substance?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[wmw999 2,567]

Good post. And I've been trying really hard to stay out of the political threads, too. Oh well.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"trying really hard to stay out of the political threads"
Me too, Wendy, but I still read them......Kinda like driving past a train wreck, you don't want to look but.......

Anyways all this is pretty much by the by, there will be interesting formal investigations into the whole debacle.
Then we'll know who was pulling the wool over who...

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[wmw999 2,567]

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there will be interesting formal investigations into the whole debacle.
Then we'll know who was pulling the wool over who...

The saddest thing is that I'm not at all sure I have faith in any investigation's being complete. Too many people seem to be comfortable with determining an answer they already see, instead of finding out what's up.

It's much less embarrassing for something to be said as soon as possible; just like nothing hangs as heavy as an undone task, nothing is as secret as the hidden embarrassment.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Aye, but the urgency is now media driven.
They are worse than QA audit actions to shake off.

Not to mention the fact that a fair few respectable UK politicians (oxymoron?) are driving it, they did resign over the issue, Robin Cook, and Clare Short over on this side.
Plus, George Galloway (nothing to do with the Precision guy!) is sueing a couple of the media barons over the whole documents uncovered in Iraq scandal.

I think the truth will come out, then we'll know.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[PhillyKev 0]

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Please explain then if you can why your pal mr. clinton bombed the famous "asprin factory" and why all of the demokat asked clinton to "take action"?

Sure...follow my post to the New American Century.

[billvon 3,095]

>I have an Iraqi friend who left Iraq in 1974 and his comment was
> that "Saddam did not have weapons YET - but that Saddam would
> LIKE that weapons and WOULD use them and therefore it was worth
> getting rid of Saddam".

Yep, and that was the one fairly good argument for taking him out. Unfortunately, it applies far more to places like North Korea, which have the weapons and have threatened to use them.

[sducoach 0]

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Don't make the mistake that everyone is like you, and picks one side to decide is "right."

Are you a mind reader now too?

Tell you what I am Bill, A white male Christian, 50 years old who listens to all the facts and uses the old "black and white" rule to decide right and wrong. When you sit at my table and buy me a Gatoraid you can tell me what I "think".

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No, the CIA has assessed that we are at a higher risk for terrorist action now. Al Qaeda is active again, and we've created a whole new generation of terrorists who have good reason to hate the US. North Korea has nuclear weapons now and is working on ICBM's - and we've been largely ignoring them. Iran is working on nuclear weapons as well. We lost a bunch of nuclear material out of a vault we captured in Iraq.

Drink the Koolaid..................
?We lost the nuclear material? You mean the NCM they do not have. Or the equipment they did not bury?

Grape or cherry koolaid?

Iran, North Korea, where did that come from. I thought we were talking about Iraq? Baffle them with BS?????

Not outside Kabul. Al Qaeda is operating in Afghanistan again, and the Taliban are coming back. Warlords run the provinces and do pretty much whatever they want. Women who don't wear veils get acid thrown in their faces. Constant fighting continues in some border areas.

The people in Kabul are pretty well off though. That's about 7% of the population.

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78% improvement........................
Not bad in any arena.
You have a direct line to Al Queda and the Taliban?

Are the people of Iraq better off now?

The ones we didn't kill? Not yet. They are largely without water and basic services, and looting is rampant. Fundamentalist Islamic mullahs are starting to exert influence.

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No, the ones we DID kill. You've got to be kidding, right?

New York Times, your're quoting the New York Times!

Okay, now I know you are kidding. You did not even pick a West coast rag.

So unless you translate a more repressive society, hunger and violence as "better off" then there are some problems over there.
***

Give me a break. Sounds like freedom to me. Being able to protest without being shot and dumped into a mass grave. Starting your own police force. Selling your own oil and keeping the profits. Working for more than $5.00 a week as a soldier or $50.00 if you were an officer. Having you army re-created and trained by the big bad Satan. Being able to ARGUE with the government! Wow, call the New York Times, I think we have a story.

More repressive, hunger, violence, sounds like a war does it not? How about the big picture. Freedom. The radicals such as your quote, are the ones blowing up oil pipelines, shutting down power plants, Killing Brits and Americans. Just like other things in life, a few spoil it for the many.

My brother and brother-in-law were/are there and were in Afghanistan. Try talking to real people who have been there, lived it, looked into the eyes of the people and had friends die instead of quoting the New York Times.

Improvement for some people is just never enough, in time, or right if it was not their idea.

123 See Ya............................

James 4:8