WMD's accounted for

[billvon 3,095]

>Are you a mind reader now too?

Nope. You called Clinton "my pal" when he is nothing of the sort; figured I'd return the favor. But I will make you a deal - you don't tell me who my friends are, I won't tell you what you're thinking. Deal?

>?We lost the nuclear material? You mean the NCM they do not have.

No. I'll take it slowly:

They had nuclear material. We knew about it. The UN knew about it. It was sealed under UN authority so they couldn't use it. It wasn't weapons-grade anyway. We invaded Iraq. We got to the facility. We broke the seals. We saw the stuff. We left and didn't seal it again. We came back a week later and much of it was gone.

>>The people in Kabul are pretty well off though. That's about 7% of the population.

>78% improvement........................

Try doing the math again. 7% improvement.

>You have a direct line to Al Queda and the Taliban?

No, but perhaps you would believe US military intelligence? As reported by The Age, an Australian newspaper:
-------------------------
More than 500 American troops were flown into Shah-i-Kot, a sparsely populated wilderness in Paktia province, to neutralise the threat from Taliban fighters believed to have poured through mountain passes in recent weeks from the Pakistani border, nearly 100 kilometres away. All over eastern Afghanistan there are clear signs that the Taliban is rallying for fresh offensives.

"Our intelligence indicates an increase in traffic through these mountains in recent weeks," said Lieutenant Michael Swift, a US intelligence officer. "A lot of enemy recruits are coming into this region from camps inside Pakistan."
--------------------------

And surely you've heard about the recent Al Qaeda bombing in Kabul.

>Give me a break. Sounds like freedom to me. Being able to protest
>without being shot and dumped into a mass grave.

Uh, you do realize we shot 70 protesters a few weeks back and killed 13 in Fallujah? Maybe we gave them their own graves, though.

>Selling your own oil and keeping the profits.

You really, honestly think that that money will end up in people's pockets and not in Halliburton's? So far that is definitely not the case.

>Working for more than $5.00 a week as a soldier or $50.00 if you were an officer.

You really going to go after an improvement in minimum wage as justification for invasion? Good for you! Perhaps they'll get cable TV now too.

>Being able to ARGUE with the government!

And get shot for your efforts!

> Freedom.

OK, scenario for you. They have free elections. They elect a fundamentalist islamic government. Women are repressed. The Koran is the law of the land. You can be executed for petty thievery. Protest is outlawed. Are they free?

>Improvement for some people is just never enough, in time, or right
> if it was not their idea.

Right now Iraq is a shambles; if you believe anything else, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap. We are shooting protesters. Coalition troops are still getting killed. The situation may improve in the future. I sure hope we do a better job there than we did with Afghanistan.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

The WMD's seem to simply not exist.

That seems to be a fairly premature assessment to make. We've had about 2 months to look for them and have had a few other things on our minds while doing so.

It appears that one of the reasons that the UN inspectors weren't finding things is that the Iraqis were hiding them. This guy had really old nuke documents. They looked for 12 years and said that there must not be a program because the UN inspectors can't find it. Now people are saying that there is no bio/chem programs because we haven't found them in 2 months.

***WASHINGTON - A former Iraqi nuclear scientist has provided American authorities parts and documents from Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons program from over 12 years ago, a U.S. intelligence official said Wednesday.

The scientist, Mahdi Shukur Obeidi, said he had kept the parts buried in his garden at his Baghdad home on the orders of Saddam's government, according to the intelligence official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Once sanctions against Iraq ended, the material was to be dug up and used to reconstitute a program to enrich uranium to make a nuclear weapon, Obeidi claimed to U.S. officials.

clicky

[FallRate 0]

Damn, I almost forgot...

Greenies shouldn't troll.

FallRate

[ThighMan 5]

Got to love the "ARM CHAIR QUARTERBACK" for the WMD. Killing the protestor, how about defending ourselves. Shots where received before we returned fire but "YOU FORGOT TO TELL THEM THAT". We are allowed opinion but at least give both sides of the argument. By the way, I'm sure you'll come up with an explanation for the current info you would say, "It is all a lie, they planted it."

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[redtwiga 0]

Technically speaking, wouldn't the plural of WMD be WsMD?

WMD's refers to something belonging to Weapon of Mass Destruction, i.e. Would you like to go see Weapon of Mass Destruction's coin collection this afternoon?

[billvon 3,095]

>Killing the protestor, how about defending ourselves

Exactly. When Saddam kills protesters, he is a tyrant oppressing peaceful protesters, no matter how many of them have AK-47's. When we kill protesters, we are simply defending ourselves. When we find 13 year olds in an Iraqi prison, we go on about what an inhuman monster Saddam is. When we hold 13 year olds in our secret military prison (Camp X-Ray) well, we're just protecting ourselves from terrorists.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. I hope, for the sake of the Iraqis, we do a better jobt there than in Afghanistan.

[rehmwa 2]

"Nuff said" you got that right.

The left are hypocrits and don't really care about the world at all. It's all about elections.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[FliegendeWolf 0]

One could just as easily cross out "left" in your statement and put in "right." or "moderate." I think that the claim that all members of one group are hypocrites while all members of another group aren't is awfully simplistic.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[rehmwa 2]

AGREE. In this case it's the left. Other issues I'd happily swap out the terms.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[FliegendeWolf 0]

I think you will find that such a simple-minded claim will not be taken very seriously here.

Or else you're trolling.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[ThighMan 5]

Quote

>Killing the protestor, how about defending ourselves

Exactly. When Saddam kills protesters, he is a tyrant oppressing peaceful protesters, no matter how many of them have AK-47's. When we kill protesters, we are simply defending ourselves. When we find 13 year olds in an Iraqi prison, we go on about what an inhuman monster Saddam is. When we hold 13 year olds in our secret military prison (Camp X-Ray) well, we're just protecting ourselves from terrorists.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. I hope, for the sake of the Iraqis, we do a better jobt there than in Afghanistan.

You said it, "When Saddam kills protesters, he is a tyrant oppressing peaceful protesters, no matter how many of them have AK-47's". Now ask yourself if the "Protesters that Saddam killed had weapons? Of course the "Plant" beneath the rose bush was placed by U.S. President Bush. Take a real look at what is going on and then ask the same questions. Do you see the children killing people or just the "Left/Right/Moderate" killing? I'm sure we are keeping 13 year old in prison. Which on was that again? As for the punishment for stealing, would you steal if you knew that you would loose your hand? (Oh, sorry, that was way to Left/Right/Moderate).... Check the list, if it is available, for the 13 year old in Camp X-Ray. Way to mix the issue of WMD up...
Airborne

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[billvon 3,095]

>I'm sure we are keeping 13 year old in prison. Which on was that again?

According to Colin Powell, unless you figure he's another liberal liar. From US News and World Report:
-----------------------------------
Secretary of State Colin Powell has argued inside the Bush administration that some detainees held at the U.S. base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, should not be in custody. In a strongly worded letter written to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Powell also maintained that the Pentagon's mishandling of detainees at Guantanamo Bay undermines America's ability to win cooperation in the war on terror. He cited complaints from eight allies that want their citizens held at Guantanamo released to their custody.

Most detainees, including al Qaeda operatives and fighters for the Taliban regime, were taken into custody during the war in Afghanistan. But Powell's April 14 letter, described to U.S. News, says that both teenagers and the very elderly are among the prisoners. According to Powell, the military is holding one 13-year-old, one 14-year-old, two 15-year-olds, one 16-year-old, an 88-year-old, and a 98-year-old. Powell also questioned why it is taking so long to reach "a final determination" on the fate of the roughly 660 people from 42 countries being held at the base.
---------------------------------

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Way to mix the issue of WMD up...

The issue is the administration lying to the public in order to further the agenda of the Wolfowitz Cabal outlined in the mid 90's for a New World Order which GWB has been following to a tee. Nothing you posted refutes that.

[happythoughts 0]

The start of the thread was about finding WMD. They haven't been found. Personally, I thought that they haven't been found because maybe the Iraqi govt has been hiding them.

Now, a scientist who ran a WMD program has stated that the Iraqi govt told him to hide documents. Why wouldn't they tell people in other programs to hide theirs?

Quote

The scientist, Mahdi Shukur Obeidi, said he had kept the parts buried in his garden at his Baghdad home on the orders of Saddam's government,

Powell said there was 25,000 liters of chem agents. Think about it. There are roughly 4 liters to a gallon or 220 liters to a 55 gallon drum. In 100 55-gallon drums, you could hide 22,000 liters...hmmm.

You could move and hide 100 55-gallon drums in a couple of trailer-trucks. If you ran the country, I'll bet it would be easy to find 2 truck drivers to order around. You are hiding some drums in the worlds largest sandbox. Not too hard to do.

[billvon 3,095]

>Personally, I thought that they haven't been found because maybe
>the Iraqi govt has been hiding them.

Really? I thought we, like, beat the old Iraqi government, and that we knew where all the WMD's were. From the UK Guardian:
---------------------
Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, attempted to play down the findings. He told ABC's This Week that banned weapons were not in areas controlled by allied forces.

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north of that," he said.
---------------------
So either he was wrong about that or wrong about their being WMD's to begin with.

Some more things we were positive about:

"We know for a fact that there are weapons there."
Ari Fleischer, Jan. 9, 2003

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."
GW Bush, Jan. 28, 2003

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."
GW Bush, Feb. 8, 2003

"There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them."
Gen. Tommy Franks, March 22, 2003

"I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction."
Kenneth Adelman, March 23, 2003

"Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find -- and there will be plenty."
Robert Kagan, April 9, 2003

"I never believed that we'd just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country."
Donald Rumsfeld, May 4, 2003

"They may have had time to destroy them, and I don't know the answer."
Donald Rumsfeld, May 27, 2003

"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction [as justification for invading Iraq] because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."
Paul Wolfowitz, May 28, 2003

"It doesn't appear there are any more targets at this time."
Lt. Col. Keith Harrington, leader of WMD search team, June 9, 2003

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north of that," he said.
---------------------
So either he was wrong about that or wrong about their being WMD's to begin with.

Or...he could be right. They could have WMD, they are in the areas he noted, and we haven't found them yet.

I am thinking Tikrit because they is SHs old stomping grounds, lots of popular support. I can't think of a better place to find them.

SH built a power base around Tikrit with family and politics. That money didn't just vaporize. His sons could still do a lot with that money. Without that money, there are a lot of people with nothing to do but kick rocks. I am sure that they will wait for a re-emergence of what power structure that the kiddies will attempt.

While they wait, they will remain quiet about the locations of any stockpiles. Like I said earlier, just because we haven't found them yet, does not mean that they are not there. There are still people with vested interests in keeping them hidden regardless of whether the old govt is gone.

[kiltboy 0]

Quote

Like I said earlier, just because we haven't found them yet, does not mean that they are not there. There are still people with vested interests in keeping them hidden regardless of whether the old govt is gone.

I can believe that which is why I would like to see the old inspectors in as well. I'm thinking they've a backgroud with the programs, people etc that they could help piece some of the puzzle together.

You're going to need all the help you can get when some of what you're looking for is under a bush in the guys backyard. It may also be more acceptable to talk to people outwith the coalition so as not to be tainted as collaborators.

Just my 2 cents.

David

[sducoach 0]

That is true. You cannot group people into a "herd" and apply the rule to the entire "herd". But if you believe that anything in this is not "simplistic" then take a deep breath and try again.

Some posts are like arguing with your brother's wife. No matter the truth, or evidence, some people just want to argue, and in time argue against their own arguments.
Like the old saying about fighting with a pig, you both get muddy. The difference is, the pig enjoys it.

Let me give him a call................ Oink, Oink.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[sducoach 0]

Quote

>Are you a mind reader now too?

Nope. You called Clinton "my pal" when he is nothing of the sort; figured I'd return the favor. But I will make you a deal - you don't tell me who my friends are, I won't tell you what you're thinking. Deal?

No Deal.

My statement is based upon your posts. Not speculation. As I said, when you buy me that Gatoraid and sit across the table then you can tell me what I think.

However, I do call George W. Bush my "pal". I even have a picture taken of the two of us when we jumped into the Springfield airport for his campaign. Do I agree with everything he is doing, no but I support what he is trying to do. Make America a right and just country again.

Quote

Try doing the math again. 7% improvement.

Go as slow or as fast as you please, just check your Afghanistan census again.

Quote

No, but perhaps you would believe US military intelligence? As reported by The Age, an Australian newspaper

From the New York Times to an "Australian" newspaper called "The Age". What a reach.

Quote

Working for more than $5.00 a week as a soldier or $50.00 if you were an officer.

You really going to go after an improvement in minimum wage as justification for invasion? Good for you! Perhaps they'll get cable TV now too.

>Being able to ARGUE with the government!

And get shot for your efforts!

Did I say we invaded Iraq to set a minimum wage??? Must have forgotten that in my "old age". That is typical BS. Their wages have/will/continue to improve. Get real.
And, as far as getting shot. Why not call the families of the troups and argue with them? When I get shot at I will shoot back. Check out CNN at least, or I know it will hurt but even Fox News if you have to.

Quote

Uh, you do realize we shot 70 protesters a few weeks back and killed 13 in Fallujah? Maybe we gave them their own graves, though.

Bold type added to show ownership.

What's this "we"? Did you get shot at or pull the trigger? Can you spell "Armchair"?

Quote

Perhaps they'll get cable TV now too.

***

No, sorry. They are buying satelite systems now to get the news. However if you want to head over and start selling cable systems I'm sure we can find you some help.

OK, scenario for you. They have free elections. They elect a fundamentalist islamic government. Women are repressed. The Koran is the law of the land. You can be executed for petty thievery. Protest is outlawed. Are they free?

Quote

No, we are going to import Democracy and that way the ACLU can go over and outlaw religion of any form completely. That would solve your problem.

Remember their last election? 100% for SH! Well let us not improve on 100%

The situation may improve in the future. I sure hope we do a better job there than we did with Afghanistan.

***

I agree things are in "shambles" but to build something up, many time you must tear it down first. Come on, your an Instructor, you know you have to "un-teach" bad habits.

But, this discussion was/is about WMD's. You have not only chased the rabbit all over the world, you have done the typical mis-direction game and made love to the rabbit.

Enough is enough.
OAFAWAF

I'm going to go finish set up a July 4th celebration demo for a group of over 50,000 people who, right or wrong, support this country and understand who gave them their "Freedom" and what it is worth.

Bill, you are so much fun to argue with. I will be waiting for my Gatoraid.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8