Discrimination vs. Morals

[AggieDave 6]

This is a spinoff from what I've watched on the Sodomy thread.

Now, here's my question.

Do you think that it is discrimination when someone honestly thinks that another person is in the wrong due to the difference in moral beliefs between the two individuals.

For instance, you take someone who believes that non-heterosexual sexual relations are immoral, thus they think that those who are not heterosexual are right.

Furthermore, you take someone who thinks that people are free to do as they choose and that non-heterosexual relationships are perfectly fine. Now this individual thinks that another individual with a different set of morals is wrong due to that person's personal beliefs.

Who is wrong in these situations?

1. The person discriminating against the minority (homosexuals).

OR

2. The person discriminating against the minority (person with different morals, possibly religous discrimination).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[quade 4]

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Do you think that it is discrimination when someone honestly thinks that another person is in the wrong due to the difference in moral beliefs between the two individuals.

Yes.

Take a look at all the "Holy Wars". They were all justified on a "moral" bases -- whether or not that had any basis in reality is another thing. Most were actually land grabs, but for some reason it's pretty easy to get martyrs on your side if they also think you have "God" on your side.

This is basically what Hitler was trying to do as well.

So, who do you think held the moral high ground there? Who do you think was more guilty of discrimination?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,121]

Morality is your own definition of what is right and wrong. Discrimination is treating a class of people differently based on that judgement. You can dislike gays and think they're 'wrong,' that's a morals call. Once you start lobbying for laws that say they can't have sex, that's discrimination.

[wmw999 2,592]

If you're just thinking they're wrong, well, that's your business. If you tell someone "I think this is wrong" and leave it at that, well, you'll catch some flak, but not necessarily a whole lot.

But when someone acts as though they can call the power of God down on someone based on how they were taught the Bible, well, I think that's presumptuous.

And there's a huge difference between feelings and actions. You can choose whomever you want for friends; you can vote exactly the way you think, and you can choose to work or jump where the environment suits you.

However, you cannot use illegal means to force your job place to continue to suit you, and if you feel strongly and vociferously that a particular type of behavior is wrong, you have to be open to others being just as vehement in trying to convince you of how they think.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AggieDave 6]

But, our constitution protects religous beliefs. The majority of religous orientated people in America would not start killing homosexuals due to their beliefs.

So what you're saying is a person's personal freedom to choose their sexuality is more important then a person's religous freedom?

At what point did you decide which right is more important then the other and how did you decide that? Are there any other Constitutional rights that are currently less worthy then the others?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhillyKev 0]

Discrimination is not wrong. By definition it is the act of noting the differences between things. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's when you are intolerant of those differences that is wrong and makes you a bigot.

[jlmiracle 7]

I'll take neither for 400 Alex. (playing Jeopardy)

I don't quite understand either statement or question.

If religion is making your personal decisions and beliefs, then, I would have to say "try thinking out of the box".

I am personally a hypocrite. I think gay people should have the rights to do what other human beings do, yet I have almost zero tolerance for people who don't think gay people should be treated as equal humans.

Judy

p.s. any statment was not directed at any one person.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

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If religion is making your personal decisions and beliefs

Truely, it should be the otherway around, that you believe a certain thing, that you think it is right and that is how you live your life. Not that you're trapped by a certain belief and you don't agree with it, but you go along with it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Amazon 7]

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Do you think that it is discrimination when someone honestly thinks that another person is in the wrong due to the difference in moral beliefs between the two individuals

When religion is used as a basis for bigotry and hatred it is wrong.
In the final analysis only god has the right to judge others.
I really believe that hypocrisy and bigotry will be dealt with far harsher than perceived sins of man as defined by man.

The Sodomy laws pertain to far more than what certain groups or individuals always focus on. They apply to far more heterosexuals than to homosexuals, altho that group is singled out as examples of that transgression. What I do as a single woman with a single man is none of the governments damn business.

I sure as hell do not need to be sanctioned by a church full of hypocrites.

Amazon

[Faber 0]

i would only call it discrimination if either of the parts use their power in a comunity to spread their personal oppion(im not sure if i get this out rigth).
Meaning if a DZO are against non-heterosexual ,and by his/her power use it to "clean"the dz for such,then yes.

politicans are a different storry,they are payed to talk the way they do,dont belive it all.

I think persons that cant respect other people either becours of religion,sexual stuff(un less its about rape or kids/and hurting anmail) and similar stuff are small minded people.
I take it as a honnor to try(i not always succsee) respect peopls oppinions either if i agree or not,i think its rude not to respect people.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[quade 4]

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So what you're saying is a person's personal freedom to choose their sexuality is more important then a person's religous freedom?

No.

There is an old saying, "Your freedoms end at the tip of my nose".

What I'm saying is that everything in the Constitution supports your freedom to do pretty much whatever you'd like AS LONG AS it doesn't impinge on the freedoms of others.

If YOU think it's immoral for gays to have sex, or to exist, then fine. Go ahead and think that. That's your Constitutionally guaranteed right. You, as a matter of fact, can even have a little club, wear white hoods and stick your fists in the air if you want to.

Personally, I find that repulsive, but it's your right.

Just as it's the right of anyone else to NOT believe what you believe and it's their right to live their lives as THEY see fit as long as they don't impinge on YOUR rights.

When you start telling people how they must live their lives differently from you simply because of who they are and what they believe, then that is discrimination.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

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You, as a matter of fact, can even have a little club, wear white hoods and stick your fists in the air if you want to.

That's a very broad and bad stereotype.

AND you've just proved what I was stating about discrimination of religous beliefs.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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So what you're saying is a person's personal freedom to choose their sexuality is more important then a person's religous freedom?

Why the choice? Neither is more important. We have freedom of religion to prevent one religious group from imposing their morals on another.

A moral is something that is a guide to what you believe is right. Not a law to be enforced on everyone else. Once you fail to respect other people's beliefs and try to enforce your morals on other people, you have crossed the line into discrimination.

[quade 4]

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That's a very broad and bad stereotype.

Yes it is, to illustrate the point that as long as people behave themselves, they can in fact have very extreme opinions and beliefs and MUST be allowed to exist.

So that we can ALL share that freedom.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skybytch 273]

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So what you're saying is a person's personal freedom to choose their sexuality is more important then a person's religous freedom?

I don't understand how one person's sexuality could affect another person's religious freedom as protected by the Constitution. IIRC (it's been a long time since government class), what is protected in the Constitution is the freedom of religious choice, and the freedom to express your beliefs how you choose to.

[AggieDave 6]

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We have freedom of religion to prevent one religious group from imposing their morals on another.

Right, but discrimination comes in more forms then just laws.

As shown in a few previous threads, I've noticed a national trend of having a personal life that is ground in religous beliefs (not necissarily Christian) becoming taboo.

The comments made in this thread and in previous threads have accented that quite well.




(BTW, this thread was started to open a dialog between people and try to get what I see as a problem out in the open, even though I am not a religous person).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Vallerina 2]

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So what you're saying is a person's personal freedom to choose their sexuality is more important then a person's religous freedom?

I would say so, but everyone has different priorities...none are right or wrong, just different.

I get your point. Everyone thinks they're right, and they'll judge opinions which differ. I can agree to disagree with certain views. However, I will mark opinions as "wrong" if they have nothing to support them, and if they're only basis is, "Because I say so." I never believed my parents when they gave that as an excuse, and I don't believe anyone else either.

Sigh...one day, people will learn that if it's not inflicting on your rights, then just look away if it bothers you so much. When people get all bent out of shape about issues that don't affect them at all, then yes, I will label them as morons.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[quade 4]

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. . . what is protected in the Constitution is the freedom of religious choice, and the freedom to express your beliefs how you choose to.

As long as that expression does not impinge on the Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of others.

For instance, murder is still murder. If your religion says it's ok to murder gays -- sorry, that's not gonna fly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,121]

>I don't understand how one person's sexuality could affect another
>person's religious freedom as protected by the Constitution.

The conflict comes about when a religion says some nonsense like "don't suffer a witch to live." You can believe whatever you want, but you can't kill witches. You get into gray areas there of course (if you're a bookstore loosely related to that religion, can you refuse to hire witches based on your beliefs? What about the wiccans' freedom of religion?)

[Amazon 7]

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You, as a matter of fact, can even have a little club, wear white hoods and stick your fists in the air if you want to.

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That's a very broad and bad stereotype.

AND you've just proved what I was stating about discrimination of religous beliefs.

Please don't EVEN get me started on the sheet wearin folk. Most of them claim to be good christians. Some of their groups even have christian sounding names for their organizations..

HOW can ANY christian.. purport to hate others based on their color.. religion, National origin, sexual orientation and then CLAIM to be GOD FEARIN AMERICANS....its about hatred...pure and simple.

You gotta be shittin me.

I try to avoid those that have the mantra of " Dumb as dirt, and proud of it" plague that they are.

Amazon

Amazon

[AggieDave 6]

Did you read any of my posts after that one? Did I imply that I agree with those race motivated groups? Nope, infact I implied that the stereotype that Quade used was very bad, that the those groups are bad AND that sort of stereotype on other Christians is exactly why I started this thread.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,592]

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I've noticed a national trend of having a personal life that is ground in religous beliefs (not necissarily Christian) becoming taboo

What I've noticed becoming taboo is having a religious Muslim life, and trying to push any religiously-based life on others.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone is completely welcome to believe as they wish. I have good friends who probably quite honestly believe I'm going to hell. But as long as I don't cuss around their kids, and try to tell them about all the things I think they're doing wrong, well, they return the favor.

If they didn't, well, they wouldn't be friends.

Some discrimination happens with everyone. Guys only want to date girls with perky boobs, girls want to date guys who can show them a good time (note: stereotype alert!). Parents tell their kids not to hang around with certain others.

Many jobs discriminate against people with mohawks when hiring.

Certain types and expressions of discrimination are illegal. Others are socially odious.

But having people tell you they disagree with you and call you wrong for expressing your opinion isn't really discrimination. It's only if they won't drink beer with you -- now that would be serious

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skybytch 273]

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You can believe whatever you want, but you can't kill witches. You get into gray areas there of course (if you're a bookstore loosely related to that religion, can you refuse to hire witches based on your beliefs? What about the wiccans' freedom of religion?)

Much clearer to me now, thanks Bill.

This is a tangent, but I can't get a handle on how any religion that preaches love can also preach intolerance.

[quade 4]

Hey, Dave, I don't think anyone here believes that all or even most Christians are "bad" people. That's just silly.

However, it would be just as silly to deny that some very bad people do exist in just about every group -- including Christians.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

Hey Bill I know a few Witches.....I wonder how well it would go over if they showed up at a Christian Supply( you see em all over) looking to buy a few christians for sacrificial purposes around All Hallows Eve.... ( it is a christian supply store isn't it.... False advertising???)

Maybe that is part of thier religion.

Sorry.. just wondering out loud.. silly me

Amazon