AndyMan 7 #26 July 11, 2003 Quote No way to measure that. Well, yeah - you can. You can look at countries that don't have that fear. In most cases, they seem to have lower crime rates then the us... Granted that when talking about two different countries, all things aren't equal. That's why Canada is such a good example, because for the most part, the important parts *are* equal... _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #27 July 11, 2003 Generally speaking if you load a 9MM luger S&W with Hydra-Shock cartridges one shot will stop any crackhead at close proximity if only due to the fact that it is very hard to run without your spine, lungs and heart. A Hydra-Shock will simlpy take the subject apart. While a stinking liberal myself I will defend my right to own and carry firearms. Liberal=liberties. My gun is one of them!jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #28 July 11, 2003 QuoteWell, yeah - you can. You can look at countries that don't have that fear. In most cases, they seem to have lower crime rates then the us... Granted that when talking about two different countries, all things aren't equal. That's why Canada is such a good example, because for the most part, the important parts *are* equal... No you can't. There are societal differences. You can't isolate the fact of gun ownership vs. gun banning from all other contributing factors, even with Canada (population density, for example). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #29 July 11, 2003 QuoteYou can't isolate the fact of gun ownership vs. gun banning from all other contributing factors, even with Canada (population density, for example). The population density of Chicago and Toronto is virtually identical. As is the economics, demographics, industrial trends, and even social history. Comparing Toronto and Chicago is a whole lot more valid then comparing Chicago and Houston, for example. Chicago had 600 violent murders last year. Toronto had 40. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 July 11, 2003 QuoteGenerally speaking if you load a 9MM luger S&W with Hydra-Shock cartridges one shot will stop any crackhead at close proximity if only due to the fact that it is very hard to run without your spine, lungs and heart. A Hydra-Shock will simlpy take the subject apart. I think you might be mis-informed about hydra shok. 124 grain happens to be my defense load of choice, but it doesn't differ greatly from most other quality ammos in terms of expansion and penetration. Are you thinking of some kind of fragmenting load like Mag Safe? Even then, I highly doubt a single shot will take out someone's spine, lungs and heart. http://www.ammolab.com/9mm_section1.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #31 July 11, 2003 QuoteIt also dumbfounds me that people actually want to take away our Bill of Right to Bear Arms. That's all I need is for some degenerate show up to my house and I have to sissy fight him off me because I am a law-abiding citizen that has been told I can't own a gun anymore due to some leftist pussies. Uhhhh, hey baby, how's it goin? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #32 July 11, 2003 QuoteThe population density of Chicago and Toronto is virtually identical. As is the economics, demographics, industrial trends, and even social history. Comparing Toronto and Chicago is a whole lot more valid then comparing Chicago and Houston, for example. Chicago had 600 violent murders last year. Toronto had 40. Funny thing is, gun ownership is pretty much banned in Chicago. Philadelphia had 261 murders last year, the lowest since 1985, and it's been decreasing steadily for the past 8 years. Hey, coincidentally, that's when the state senate forced Philadelphia to comply with the states shall issue policy regarding concealed carry permits. We could go back and forth forever with stats and neither of us come out a winner. They're too easy to skew. Bottom line is, when you show me that everyone else is unarmed, starting with the criminals, or assign me my own personal armed guard, I'll give up my gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #33 July 11, 2003 I am just looking at the box and at my clip: It is a 135 grain cartridge Velocity at muzzle = 1050 feet/sec Energy = 330 ft/lbs It is an expanding projectile. At point blank (3-4 feet) it will take the subject apart. I shot it at several phone books put together. VERY SCARY!jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #34 July 11, 2003 Phone books will in no way replicate soft tissue. If you want to look at expansion and the like, you need ballistic gelatin. You can also pick up Evan Marshalls' Stopping Power for some "light" reading. Personally, I like Corbon, BeeSafe or MagSafe for PD. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #35 July 11, 2003 This kinda talk weirds me out.... sounds like you guys REALLY WANT an opportunity to unload on someone sometimes, what with all these "Boy, it'll sure shred a guy" theoretical discussions... I am sure you really don't wanna shoot someone, but all these conversations always seem to have that undertone.... Probably I am just projecting my sick fanatasies onto others... my apologies... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laurel 0 #36 July 11, 2003 QuoteThis kinda talk weirds me out.... sounds like you guys REALLY WANT an opportunity to unload on someone sometimes, what with all these "Boy, it'll sure shred a guy" theoretical discussions... I certainly never want to hurt anyone, much less kill anyone. But if I am ever put in a situation where I have to shoot someone to protect my life, I am guessing that I will be shaking almost uncontrollably. With that, my accuracy will probably be way off from what I am used to at the relaxed shooting range environment. So, I want to make sure that regarless of whether I shoot someone in the chest or the knee, that it will stop them. Not all guns/ammo have stopping power enabling the attacker to finish his/her assault. Make more sense?..................................................................... PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074 My Pink M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #37 July 11, 2003 QuoteChicago had 600 violent murders last year. Toronto had 40. Whoa, Big Fella!!! Aren't you comparing total murders of Chicago to those of Toronto's 40 gun-related homicides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #38 July 11, 2003 I thought the same thing with the original post: "Chalk one up for the good guys. Good riddance." and AggieDave's "Kick ass! I like to here stories where law abiding citizens come out on top when faced with extra-ordinary situations. Especially when dealing with people trying to rob them, etc." It's kind of like a bouncer who will use any excuse to beat someone's ass or a cop who shoots too quickly. It's not a matter of upholding justice, it's the delight in having the excuse to kill someone. We could go through hypotheticals all day but what if the chick had the common sense to not get in an arguement with a homeless dude and had instead shut the door and called the cops. Then they could have come, searched him, found the knives and had a case. Instead we have a dead guy. When someone dies, it's never a good thing. Something can always be done to prevent it. The least people could do is to refrain from celebrating it."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #39 July 11, 2003 Yeah, I get it... I certainly understand (and agree with) the concept that you gotta put your target down and make sure it stays down, preferably dead.... But when I see the ballistics test reported on in magazines and in discussions online with words like "awesome" "devestating" "incredible" etc... just seems to put a little bit of a weird spin on it for me... There are entire magazines out there dedicated to concealed handgun carry and how best to shoot people... This is certainly fine, and I think for the cops, concealed carry folks, and other professionals out there it is a valuable resource. But I have a disturbing feeling that a large part of the readership would fall into that 80% I described in my first post in this thread, and that SOME of these folks would dearly love to shoot the shit out of someone... The "oh please someone come rob my house at night" mentality is what I am getting at here... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fungi3001 0 #40 July 11, 2003 QuoteHow it should be.....you guys have got some decent Laws over there.In the UK we had a guy imprisoned for 3 years for shooting a burglar inside his house. I wish our justice system would take yours as an example.It seems here they are designed to protect the criminal. 357 mag is one hell of a punch,I keep a shotgun in the house and would use it without hesitation.Well done old guy!! i agree with you thats its totall messed up but tony martin was not in any danger himself. i understand people have a right to protect themselves and others and their property - but shooting somone who is not threatening your life is too extreme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #41 July 11, 2003 QuoteThe "oh please someone come rob my house at night" mentality is what I am getting at here... Well, considering that I'm assuming you don't associate with a lot of people who do carry guns, you're assumption is way off base. I regularly associate with people who carry and know a few who have cleared leather or actually shot at/killed someone. Not one wants to ever have to do that and those that have had to regret it for the rest of their lives (that they're luckily still around to enjoy). It's lingo that scares you so you associate bad things with it. Imagine a whuffo listening in on skydivers joking about going in or bouncing. They'd think we're really fucked up and want or expect that to happen. When I talk about ballistics and the damage a round can produce, I'm talking about a tool and its effectiveness. It's a tool with a specific purpose that I hope never has to be used. But it's a tool that my life could very well rely upon (much like my skydiving gear). Those of us who choose to take the responsibility of our own protection into our own hands take that responsibility seriously. It's something that you shouldn't do without knowledge. And we want to make sure that we have the best tools for the job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #42 July 11, 2003 QuoteQuote The population density of Chicago and Toronto is virtually identical. As is the economics, demographics, industrial trends, and even social history. Comparing Toronto and Chicago is a whole lot more valid then comparing Chicago and Houston, for example. Chicago had 600 violent murders last year. Toronto had 40. Yes, but what you forget to mention is that there are other major differences between Chicago and Toronto. Take for example, temperature differences. How hot does Toronto get in the summertime in comparison to Chicago? I know Chicago can get bloody hot in the summertime ... I am not an expert in human behavior by any means but I would be willing to bet money that there is more crime in Chicago in the summertime than in Toronto especially if you are talking violent crime.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #43 July 11, 2003 re-read my posts and you will see I am talking about yahoos who shoot people in their homes for no good reason... not professionals or trained conealed carry people.... concealed carry guy shoots bad guy who is trying to hurt somone.... Good jerkoff shoots a drunk who wanders into his house accidentally / japanese exchange student on his doorstep / robber running OUT of his house.... Bad __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #44 July 11, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuote The population density of Chicago and Toronto is virtually identical. As is the economics, demographics, industrial trends, and even social history. Comparing Toronto and Chicago is a whole lot more valid then comparing Chicago and Houston, for example. Chicago had 600 violent murders last year. Toronto had 40. Yes, but what you forget to mention is that there are other major differences between Chicago and Toronto. Take for example, temperature differences. How hot does Toronto get in the summertime in comparison to Chicago? I know Chicago can get bloody hot in the summertime ... I am not an expert in human behavior by any means but I would be willing to bet money that there is more crime in Chicago in the summertime than in Toronto especially if you are talking violent crime. Also please tell me the ratio of police to citizens in the city. Please tell me the ratio of untreated drug addicts (Toronto has decent treatment programs in comparison), tell me the differences in education level, and income level, and racial background. It's a ridiculous comparison. The only good comparison you can make is a city before and after legal concealed carry. Like I said, in Philadelphia, it was nearly impossible to carry a gun legally until 1995. The PA legislature than forced the city to issue permits. The overall murder and crime rates have dropped ever since, and last year were the lowest in 18 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jib 0 #45 July 11, 2003 Quotei agree with you thats its totall messed up but tony martin was not in any danger himself. i understand people have a right to protect themselves and others and their property - but shooting somone who is not threatening your life is too extreme Someone forces their way into my castle, they can die. Well, it's more like a hovel, but my home is more than four walls. It represents privacy and security. Invade it at your own risk. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jraf 0 #46 July 11, 2003 You are wrong in your assumption. If anybody passes through my door uninvited and/or tries to hurt my family I WILL SHOOT THEM. I will sleep well thereafter. No regrets. Don't screw with my family. I am worse than a Sicilian in that repect.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #47 July 11, 2003 Well, do what you want... If I wake up, and see some guy running OUT the front door with a TV in his hands... I ain't gonna shoot the guy. A TV, even a cool big flatscreen,is not worth a life, even a scuzzy crackhead one... I will round up whatever family that may be present, hole up in a room, call the cops and wait, rather than start capping off rounds in an urban environment. Now... a guy coming IN my house... I would MAYBE shoot right off. depends.... I was not saying it's never OK to shoot a person in your house... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #48 July 12, 2003 Also, although you may deny it... You may well feel regret... they don't put cops in officer involved shootings on admin. leave and stick them in counseling for nothing.... Also, many many combat Marines and soldiers feel regret and anxiety after they shoot someone "for sure" (i.e. not shapes 100 meters away)... it goes away quickly once the kill or be killed nature of combat sinks in, but it is there from what I have read and heard in my armchair historian / psychologist interests.... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TitaniumLegs 8 #49 July 12, 2003 You've obviously never been to Toronto in the Summer. Toronto and Chicago have very similar climates. They're both damned cold in the winter, and can be damned hot in the Summer. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #50 July 12, 2003 Quoterobber running OUT of his house.... Bad Who cares? Atleast in Texas, that is perfectly legal (at night) and if they're still on your property. There's more harm done then just things taken when someone invades your house like that. For some folks, the mental scars of that invasion would torment them for a long time. (I've seen that more then once). Then again, if they're stupid enough to break into a house in a state that is very well armed, then that's their fucking problem.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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crapflinger2000 1 #43 July 11, 2003 re-read my posts and you will see I am talking about yahoos who shoot people in their homes for no good reason... not professionals or trained conealed carry people.... concealed carry guy shoots bad guy who is trying to hurt somone.... Good jerkoff shoots a drunk who wanders into his house accidentally / japanese exchange student on his doorstep / robber running OUT of his house.... Bad __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #44 July 11, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuote The population density of Chicago and Toronto is virtually identical. As is the economics, demographics, industrial trends, and even social history. Comparing Toronto and Chicago is a whole lot more valid then comparing Chicago and Houston, for example. Chicago had 600 violent murders last year. Toronto had 40. Yes, but what you forget to mention is that there are other major differences between Chicago and Toronto. Take for example, temperature differences. How hot does Toronto get in the summertime in comparison to Chicago? I know Chicago can get bloody hot in the summertime ... I am not an expert in human behavior by any means but I would be willing to bet money that there is more crime in Chicago in the summertime than in Toronto especially if you are talking violent crime. Also please tell me the ratio of police to citizens in the city. Please tell me the ratio of untreated drug addicts (Toronto has decent treatment programs in comparison), tell me the differences in education level, and income level, and racial background. It's a ridiculous comparison. The only good comparison you can make is a city before and after legal concealed carry. Like I said, in Philadelphia, it was nearly impossible to carry a gun legally until 1995. The PA legislature than forced the city to issue permits. The overall murder and crime rates have dropped ever since, and last year were the lowest in 18 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jib 0 #45 July 11, 2003 Quotei agree with you thats its totall messed up but tony martin was not in any danger himself. i understand people have a right to protect themselves and others and their property - but shooting somone who is not threatening your life is too extreme Someone forces their way into my castle, they can die. Well, it's more like a hovel, but my home is more than four walls. It represents privacy and security. Invade it at your own risk. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jraf 0 #46 July 11, 2003 You are wrong in your assumption. If anybody passes through my door uninvited and/or tries to hurt my family I WILL SHOOT THEM. I will sleep well thereafter. No regrets. Don't screw with my family. I am worse than a Sicilian in that repect.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #47 July 11, 2003 Well, do what you want... If I wake up, and see some guy running OUT the front door with a TV in his hands... I ain't gonna shoot the guy. A TV, even a cool big flatscreen,is not worth a life, even a scuzzy crackhead one... I will round up whatever family that may be present, hole up in a room, call the cops and wait, rather than start capping off rounds in an urban environment. Now... a guy coming IN my house... I would MAYBE shoot right off. depends.... I was not saying it's never OK to shoot a person in your house... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crapflinger2000 1 #48 July 12, 2003 Also, although you may deny it... You may well feel regret... they don't put cops in officer involved shootings on admin. leave and stick them in counseling for nothing.... Also, many many combat Marines and soldiers feel regret and anxiety after they shoot someone "for sure" (i.e. not shapes 100 meters away)... it goes away quickly once the kill or be killed nature of combat sinks in, but it is there from what I have read and heard in my armchair historian / psychologist interests.... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TitaniumLegs 8 #49 July 12, 2003 You've obviously never been to Toronto in the Summer. Toronto and Chicago have very similar climates. They're both damned cold in the winter, and can be damned hot in the Summer. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #50 July 12, 2003 Quoterobber running OUT of his house.... Bad Who cares? Atleast in Texas, that is perfectly legal (at night) and if they're still on your property. There's more harm done then just things taken when someone invades your house like that. For some folks, the mental scars of that invasion would torment them for a long time. (I've seen that more then once). Then again, if they're stupid enough to break into a house in a state that is very well armed, then that's their fucking problem.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Jib 0 #45 July 11, 2003 Quotei agree with you thats its totall messed up but tony martin was not in any danger himself. i understand people have a right to protect themselves and others and their property - but shooting somone who is not threatening your life is too extreme Someone forces their way into my castle, they can die. Well, it's more like a hovel, but my home is more than four walls. It represents privacy and security. Invade it at your own risk. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #46 July 11, 2003 You are wrong in your assumption. If anybody passes through my door uninvited and/or tries to hurt my family I WILL SHOOT THEM. I will sleep well thereafter. No regrets. Don't screw with my family. I am worse than a Sicilian in that repect.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #47 July 11, 2003 Well, do what you want... If I wake up, and see some guy running OUT the front door with a TV in his hands... I ain't gonna shoot the guy. A TV, even a cool big flatscreen,is not worth a life, even a scuzzy crackhead one... I will round up whatever family that may be present, hole up in a room, call the cops and wait, rather than start capping off rounds in an urban environment. Now... a guy coming IN my house... I would MAYBE shoot right off. depends.... I was not saying it's never OK to shoot a person in your house... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crapflinger2000 1 #48 July 12, 2003 Also, although you may deny it... You may well feel regret... they don't put cops in officer involved shootings on admin. leave and stick them in counseling for nothing.... Also, many many combat Marines and soldiers feel regret and anxiety after they shoot someone "for sure" (i.e. not shapes 100 meters away)... it goes away quickly once the kill or be killed nature of combat sinks in, but it is there from what I have read and heard in my armchair historian / psychologist interests.... __________________________________________________ What would Vic Mackey do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #49 July 12, 2003 You've obviously never been to Toronto in the Summer. Toronto and Chicago have very similar climates. They're both damned cold in the winter, and can be damned hot in the Summer. (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #50 July 12, 2003 Quoterobber running OUT of his house.... Bad Who cares? Atleast in Texas, that is perfectly legal (at night) and if they're still on your property. There's more harm done then just things taken when someone invades your house like that. For some folks, the mental scars of that invasion would torment them for a long time. (I've seen that more then once). Then again, if they're stupid enough to break into a house in a state that is very well armed, then that's their fucking problem.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
