Amazon 7 #26 July 14, 2003 QuoteIn my line of work I have spent extensive times with various natives round the world and they have been the most rewarding times of my work. There I have seen real freedom, but the fact that I have seen it, means that the clock is ticking also for these free spirits When you talk about freedom in those places.. did you ever really see... the freedom that women had there.. or did that ever enter into your thinking at all. You mentioned Tonga in an earlier post.... a friend of mine did his two years of missionary work there. Since my family has commercial fishing ties we had a chat about acquiring boats and equipment and expertise for that for use in Tonga. I was very interested at the time but was informed that I would not be able to be part of any such operation since I was a woman and ownership would not be possible there. Its a monarchy and apparently women have less than a full stake in all that freedom. But what the hell if its a native culture its got to be right.......... its tradition right???? I find such situations in much of the world where there is all this freedom you speak of offensive to me. Just my .02 Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #27 July 14, 2003 In that world of true freedom my accurized 7MM Remington Magnum with the 6-24x power 40mm scope might be very usefull. Reach out and touch an anarchist at 700 yards before he can get to me. Congrats! Thats just the other countries reception of the typical redneck. If you don't understand it - shoot it. there's been tons of clever guys thinking what the essence of freedom is - if you sum it up it comes down to this: you cant define it exactley, cause it's as different as anybodys nose. i guess one could define freedom only from one personal beackground. what maybe my freedom maybe ridiculous for my neighbor. but that was stated before. one god point though - if i act out my personal freedom and i do harm do my next i'm an asshole. no further discussions. another good point: freedom is the ability to say what you think, met the people i'd like to be with, read the books i'd like to read, build up my own "weltbild" (sorry, no translation on hand). and i'd go so far as to defend this/these f freedom(s) even if i don't like what other people think/do as long as they don't tell me that their way of living/thinking is the only appropriate way to do so The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #28 July 14, 2003 QuoteCongrats! Thats just the other countries reception of the typical redneck. If you don't understand it - shoot it. LOL... Anyone who knows me.. knows better. But the point is.. in that world of total lack of authority..a post apocalyptic world.... would you feel safe... that is not being a redneck that is survival, I myself would wish it otherwise.. but that silly old realist in me that knows better. One of the reasons we are free in this country is BECAUSE of the things that are spelled out in the Constitution of these United States. One of those rights is the right to bear arms... but with that goes the responsibility that many people do not have... the responsibility to be held responsible for ones actions with those firearms. But then again.. we have had stability here with a government that knows its not the only one who has the guns. That was by design by the men who put this country together.. seeking to avoid the abuses that had been the norm by the kings and nobility of the countries all thru Europe from wence they came. In many parts of the world.. that is not the case... and then what recourse do the people have if they do not agree with what thier "government" decides for them... how many of them disappear..... never to be seen again... simply for disagreeing with their "government". That does not happen here.....OK I know.. we have gun violence here.. but there is gun violence in many parts of the world.... history is replete with abuses.. maybe someday the world will get beyond the need for weapons... but knowing human nature.. I doubt it. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #29 July 14, 2003 "build up my own "weltbild" (sorry, no translation on hand). " "Weltbild" World view/world picture. There isn't really an english one word equivalent. Something like "cosmopolitan outlook" or "global perspective" might fit. I know what you are trying to say though.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #30 July 14, 2003 Jeanne, I guess this guy is out of context in regards to freedoms, for once, he complains that he should be free to fish salmon without permit, and for the other, he bitches about you shooting 300 away and getting a meal, and rug for decoration......??? I do not know what his problem is, but he does not mention anything for the facts that this world is becoming overpopulated, and eventually all governments will be enforced to control birth rates. He says that that the US is oppresive?? I think he probably spent some time in jail over here. Many things are being given to the ones that have so little in this country, my tax dollars often go to irresponsible people who are engaged in having more kids than a day care can take, gives them food stamps, rent vouchers, the work, yet the infringe in freedom without responsibility. We are free but our freedom is limited when we abuse some one else's. It is a fact that this guy has obviously dismissed to have some sort of advantages. And as far as civilizations taht are pure, yes, I take that indians, and aborigens througout the world are perhaps good models of society, yet they have also responsibilities in their clans as well. So suck it up, and lets go shooting hon... Blue skies!"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #31 July 14, 2003 Quote. One of those rights is the right to bear arms... What about thr right to arm bears????if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #32 July 14, 2003 QuoteWhat about thr right to arm bears???? There are two critters I do not trust in nature.. Bears and sharks and there are not to many sharks in the mountains of Washington State...friggin unpredictable buggers they are but not that unpredictable. There is an area of the far Northeastern Corner of this state... the Salmo Roadless area that the Spokane Big Game Council for years has been transplanting animals to. Its one of the few places where there are Woodland Caribou, Moose, Bighorn sheep, Mountain goats, Elk, Mule Deer, Whitetail Deer, Mountain Lions, Bobcat, Lynx ,Black bears and Grizzley Bears all in the same area. Some of those bears are the "problem bears" from the Nationl Park system. IN other words, bears that do not have a natural fear of man that most do. After backpacking in that area for many years.....I have seen several of them up close and far too personal for my tastes.... I can assure you.. they are quite well armed.. and I felt no need to shoot one ever. Most of the years I go hunting I go by myself.... and count coup on the animals and do not shoot. I enjoy being in the woods. I usually take my camera as well.. and take pictures of animals... like the bobcat that sat on a rock watching me as I watched her and her kittens enjoy life. Only when I go with a group.. who actually need the meat do I ever actually kill anything. For anyone who has ever shot an elk, they know that when you pull that trigger.. all the fun for the season is over and some serious hard work begins. I do not need the meat but I do know plenty of people that can use a few hundred pounds of meat in their freezer. and for the cost of a hunting license I can have a weeks fun in the wilderness and they can take home the hundreds of pounds of meat that an elk can provide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #33 July 14, 2003 Quotehe bitches about you shooting 300 away and getting a meal, and rug for decoration......??? Yeah.. I bet that fancy Northern Hunting Club that I would be drummed out of for making a good kill shot on an animal... probably does not have all that many women hunters in it either. I will stick to taking head shots....Cooked brains are yucka pucka. I have NEVER wounded an animal like I have seen so many hunters do. I have tracked one several miles to end its suffering.. all because of a misplaced shot that he made into the center mass of an elk. They are tough critters. I buy my $10 salmon tag.. and usually fill it with about 20 to 25 salmon per year. I prefer Chinook and I give most of it away to people I know.The money goes to support the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.. to stop poachers(hmmmm)...and to run hatcheries that counter the effects of North Pacific overfishing by some nations I pay way too much in taxes. and I beleive that it is... all in all well spent. Sure there are abuses.. but we do have a country that needs our Armed Forces and the people there that are put into harms way by the policy makers... that are paid far too little... Our police.. that do protect us... even from ourselves.... Our Firemen... who put themselves in harms way every day to save lives nad property... to our Teachers.. another vastly underpaid group that is making a difference in tomorrows world by educating the children. I do not begrudge any of that because it makes for a better place to live.... not perfect but far better than in some places. QuoteSo suck it up, and lets go shooting hon... As far as going shooting.. I would love to.. I do it often. I look at shooting...target practice as a fun hobby and always have. My grandfather taught me to shoot at a very early age . My mother used to take us to the firing range as well. Perhaps that is why I am a fair to midlin shot... I practice.. I go out and walk the area in the summer to see what is there and what areas they are using to bed .. to feed and to water. I do not view getting ready for hunting season to be going to the tire store for 4 new tires for my 4x4. The funniest part of this.. is the EuroDude who thinks I am a redneck.... is that I am a liberal...one who has guns and uses them wisely. I have not seen too much on this thread from our right wing conservative friends here on DZ.COM. One of the ways freedom is manifested in this country... is that liberal or conservative.. we can argue our hearts out on what is the right way to run this country. But when there is an external threat... we band together as Americans. That is something that the world just has not grasped yet.....at least for the last 200 years or so. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #34 July 14, 2003 I see that the discussion continued beyond the hours I stayed at the ships bridge so I will comment few of your statements. 'Freedom of women in native societies': Generally the societies are either patriarchal or matriarchal due to the necessity of leadership that is essential for the survival of the family or the group. It does not have anything to do with definition of freedom. It is question of survival tradition. 'Missionaries in Tonga': Objective observers, jippididoo. They should have stayed out of there in the first place. "Right to bear arms": You sound like NRA poster. I am all for individuals right to bear arms.... but as of considering that that is something that keeps the Government on line.... hey time for a wake up call. "Fancy northern hunting club with no women etc.." Well as I mentioned earlier we do not hunt in clubs. But in the hunting groups there is maybe 20% female shooters and I would estimate 40% participation when discussing of the entire group. "300 yard running head shot" Well now... I thought of letting the matter rest but as you constantly bring it up I once more point out that in the unlikely situation that it has ever happened it is extremely bad manners.... which if you have anything to do with hunting rather than sport shooting.... you should know. Finally: As for the freedom It is as seen by the idividual. As seen by me.... there is very little of it left in so called modern societies, whether in USA or in Europa. AND BECAUSE OF THE AFOREMENTIONED WE DO NOT HAVE ANY BUSINESS RUNNING AROUND THE WORLD LIBERATING PEOPLE ON PRETEX OF FREEDOM. IT IS OUR SUBJECTIVE FREEDOM, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THEIRS. Kindly: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 226 #35 July 14, 2003 Quote In wider scale I agree. What you said covers a big part of it and I think it is very well defined in US constitution. You are so very right IMO. I cannot help but agree. What was said is a big part of it. Not all there is though. One cannot "fully" describe Freedom, alot like one cannot fully describe Love. Only through arts, such as Poetry and Literature, and painting can anyone even truly to "fully" describe Freedom. Something so fulfilling and beautiful cannot be put in words. QuoteAt the same token though your answer is very work oriented. In your rather short comment you have five words referring to work, namingly: labor, business, prosper, labor law and slave labor. I have never met one person that has eversucceeded that did not have to practice. I have never even headr of anyone that turned "Pro" without training and perseverance. One thing that is sure. Freedom DOES NOT mean that you do not have to work to succeed. Of course freedom does mean that you can choose not to work. (The ability to choose without the fear of persecution) Common sense tells us, though, at the same time you are choosing not to succeed. There are always a few exceptions. But IMHO that is it.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites w4p2 0 #36 July 15, 2003 Sure we must work. No doubt about it. It is just that sometimes we get fixated by the idea and loose the perspective of real life... me included. There was this locally well known finnish carricatyrist who defined the situation very well long time ago. He stated that roughly 100 years ago we lived in small huts hunting and fishing for subsistence... whereby now we work our arses off during the weeks... so that during the weekends we can go to these litle huts and hunt and fish for subsistence. I think it pretty much rounds it up. Crazy world, crazy me. cheers: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #37 July 15, 2003 Quote"300 yard running head shot" Well now... I thought of letting the matter rest but as you constantly bring it up I once more point out that in the unlikely situation that it has ever happened it is extremely bad manners.... which if you have anything to do with hunting rather than sport shooting.... you should know. I figured out a very long time ago that there are people who can do things better than I can.. some things I can do better than others.... BUT I never use my own personal inadequacies to judge what others can or can not do. People do have inadequecies.. just as countries do. Now remember this is the American West where I live ...... where everything is bigger... Now I have to admit.. that was one of the best shots I have ever made in the field... and even the Coast Guardsman that was with me and who was the recipient of most of the meat from the elk and has hunted all of his life was a bit amazed.. but it was at high altitude in the high mountains of the Eagle Cap Wilderness of Oregon. It was above the treeline... the elevation between my location and the herd of elk was nearly the same .. and they were across a small draw near the rimrock. Another group of hunters had undoubtedly spooked them out of a patch of Sub- alpine fir. I shoot a custom built Mauser sport version bolt action rifle in 7mm Remington Magnum caliber. The action is glass bedded and the24" Douglas Airguage barrel has been turned down to sport weight for ease of carrying in the high mountains... and it is free floating. The loads we use for hunting we reload our selves on National Match grade brass that has only been fired a couple times and only in the chamber of this rifle. Each load is reloaded by hand in the same RCBS dies.. and the powder is measured out to 1/10 of a grain +/_. The bullets are each also weighed and are within +/-.10 of a grain I prefer the Sierra 175 grain boat tail because of superior ballistics at the ranges I typically shoot at. For hunting I use Gamemaster bullets and for target I use the Match grade bullets of the same weight and configuration. The Rifle will consistently shoot sub minute of angle groups at 400 to 500 yards. The rifle is sighted in at 250 yards which with the load I use gives me a very flat trajectory out to 300 yards. Basically anything between me and 300 yards is only within a couple of inches elevation. I go shooting all year long.. and a shot is instinctual as far as breathing control and aim point and where and how I light up my scope. If you didnt get it yet.. I take shooting somewhat seriously. I dont have to kill something when I go into the woods to consider it a successful hunt. Dems the facts bucko... are you feeling a bit threatened???? As far as who we choose to liberate or oppress I guess that is up to our government... the what is right and what is wrong of it will be decided in the history to be written. Dictators around the wsorld are not sleeping as well these days. Its not my call... but then again... when has YOUR country lifted a finger to help ANYONE else but yourselves? I wonder if the Sami people feel liberated or oppressed or conquered by the Finns??? Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #38 July 15, 2003 Your postings in other threads made the impression that you are a reasonable person. what you type in here makes me feel a little bit different and i'm not sure if you are not too self-righteous. but - and i want to make it very clear - i would fight for your right to voice your opinions - no matter if i like them or not. maybe the following explains the difference between europe and the states. we had our load of shit with dictators who told us what we should think. who told us that everybody else who didn't share the leaders opinions & beliefs were to be killed, put to camps or tortured to change their way of thinking. my family lived near a concentration camp in WWII - so they knew what was going on. an uncle of mine went to prison 'cause he was an active member of the widerstand (resistance???) - and keep asking myself over the years if i had the guts to do the same thing. so you see - europe is nit full of sissys (cissys? syssies?) or lame assed cowards who wait for the glorious americans to free us of the tyrants (i dearly hope you get the sarcasm). if you are into the history thing - go for the archives and find out how your governement actually knew about most of the shit that happenend and still had some reason to do business with the nazis (i dont want to put up paralells with the us-government doing more or less the same stuff in the present, as long as a murderous regime is of some use for the powergames of the us). to be even more precise and to calm down a little: i think that your country is the home of some great values, has made some great achievements and has done its best to end the bloody WWII thing. many of your people died for a cause that wasn't teirs but for the good of it. i am very thankfull for this, because right now it enables me to live just the way i do and i don't have to follow my uncles path (no sarcasm - honestly!) on the other hand: what frightnes me (personally) is the attitude of your government towards non-u.s.-people/countries. it's the "we know what is good for you and if you don't think waht we do you are our enemy" attitude that sucks. it's not that bloodsimple nor has is ever been. not for me not for you and not for the rest of the world. i'll try another definition of freedom: it could be an ability. the ability to change the point of view and the see/feel/recognize what somebody else is thinking. and if i see it's good to make a choice and adapt my way of living/thinking/acting/beeing. freedom has - again for me - something to do with respect and a non-judgemental attitude 'cause rarely have the knowledge of a persons background that makes/forms his/her beliefs. (but maybe thats a point to start another thread? - how do you define respect?)The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites w4p2 0 #39 July 15, 2003 Hi Amazon You just don't seem to get it. Shooting something running at 300 yards is very unethical. If you are the crack shot / the white hunter you claim to be and intentionally had a head shot at that distance, that is borderline criminal, because you should know better than that. and finally If you did shoot into running heard... as far as I am concerned your guns should be confiscated. As far as Finnish participation to international aid, peace keeping or the situation of Same people, it would help, if you would check the facts before flaming away. The ignorance would not be so apparent. Cheers: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #40 July 15, 2003 maybe you should start a new thread on hunting-ethics?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites w4p2 0 #41 July 15, 2003 LOL, Just did, hope that this one returns into the original topic. Cheers: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #42 July 15, 2003 hope that this one returns into the original topic. *** I hope so too. cause it would be really interesting to get a broader variety of thoughts in hereThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #43 July 15, 2003 I try to keep the self righteousness down to a bare minimum because unlike some on here... I am not too good at it. I know my shortcomings Quoteeurope is nit full of sissys (cissys? syssies?) or lame assed cowards who wait for the glorious americans to free us of the tyrants (i dearly hope you get the sarcasm). ... Hey I like sissies...I think they are cute.. far more interesting than strutting chest puffing guys who are in point of fact hiding thier inadequacies. BUT on the flip side.. the situation in Europe just 10 years ago is appaling...I thought we had got beyond the time for genocide/ethnic cleansing... but there it was.. and most of Europe again stood by.. wringing its hands rather than acting to stop those attrocities. I know this country is supporting despicable people in many places. That is the way of the world but I also think that as time goes on. the support has changed and more benign governments rise to take thier place. We are damned if we do not do anything about it.. or we are damned if we do something about it. Very few people know what really is going on behind the scenes...but I do know for a fact that the stated policy of our government for a long time.. even before 9/11 was to support free elections where ever they might happen. The right of people to choose their own poison of a government should and has for the most part been respected. I think it was a forgone conclusion since the "election" of this president, that Saddam was going down...hard.. It was personal for Bush.. they sent a hit squad to kill his father in Kuwait. Ok we had supported him... we also supported Noriega... both were despots.. both are removed from power. I hope other dictators in the world have taken note. I really would like to see a world.. finally at peace.... where governments served thier people... maybe someday that will be a reality in more of the world. One thing to remember though that many forget..we as Americans.. ARE THE WORLD..... we have come from EVERY country...so maybe...being an old democracy...that works.. most of the time we as a people... with all our faults really do know what others could learn... to have the freedom to choose a tolerable life... perhaps even someday to have a fulfilling life. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #44 July 15, 2003 Dude you still do not get it.. Just because YOU cant make a shot like that dont think I am some kind of criminal for doing a fairly simple dead on kill. Obviously you dont understand hunting other than as a member of a group drive of hapless animals in the boreal forest. Fact When elk are running as a herd anywhere from 6 to 15 individual animals... they are not doing the pell mell flow of a herd of reindeer/caribou, they move out at a slow trot conserving energy but covering a great amount of distance, usually over into the next basin, the cows lead the herd interspersed with the calves and yearlings, any bulls that are with the herd are usually bringing up the rear. Most of the time the bulls form separate herds or are solitaries.... but this was near the end of the rut. This was a very large bull bringing up the rear.. in the relative safety of having the herd pass through an area first. In the high mountains of Oregon.. above the timberline.. long shots at 200 yards are the norm. That is one of the reasons I use a high powered 3000 FPS muzzle velocity custom built rifle and not some sporterized low powered WWI burned out barrel POS with open sights. Sometimes if the vegetation and the terrain allow, you can spot a herd at a great distance... 1 mile or more.... and then blind stalk them to within a hundred yards... maybe. If the herd has an old wary cow you will never get that close. I can see that I touched a RAW nerve there about the Sami People..... since....I do know they are a minority indigenous group that has been shafted over and over. History of Sami People Excerpt Finnish law no longer grants the Sami exclusive right to their traditional livelihoods. Excerpt The Sami Parliament would be the autonomous body of the Sami, but it would still not have decision making power. So far, the Government has not started to draft a Bill on the rights of the Sami to land, water and traditional livelihoods Not to worry though.. and to preempt the vehemence about native americans I know you are just itching to bring up.( My great grandmother by the way was a Seminole... opps there goes that Great White hunter anology right out the window.) I am well aware of the european history as it pertains to native americans. Perhaps you would like to enlighten all of us on the many contributions that the Finns have made to further world peace. I know they have a very small contingent that FINALLY went into Kosovo and Bosnia...hey every little bit helps. Spell it out...since we are for the most part just ignorant simple minded self centered Americans who value our freedom that is not given to even people in your own country to live thier traditional lives if they see fit. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #45 July 15, 2003 first of all - thx for beeing clear at last. aabout the situation in europe over the last years e.g. the kosovo-conflict and the civil war in ex-yugoslavia: thats our neighborhodd. and it was deeply depressing to see how the governments of most european countries acted (even "my" government was just bullshitting). no excuses accepted. it was lameassed, less than halfharted, mostly looking away from genocide. f*#@ing hypocrites! so i go along with you and once again - it takes guts, will and power to make decisions if - and only if - people in a country can't help themselves and get rid of a ridiculous regime. Quote We are damned if we do not do anything about it.. or we are damned if we do something about it. damn right! maybe "we" in the "old world" (what a stupid term indeed) are just scared shitless because of our history and tend to act like "sissies" (thx for the spelling-help) - there were far to many wars for no reason at all in europe. sometimes i wonder if there's anyplace here, were no blood was spillt whilst fighting battles Quote I really would like to see a world.. finally at peace.... where governments served thier people.. I'd like to see the same. but i guess thats like believing in father christmasThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jaaska 0 #46 July 15, 2003 “Freedom is first of all the change to formulate available choices. To argue over them – and then the opportunity to choose. This is why freedom cannot exist without an enlarged role of human reason in human affairs.” (C. Wright Mills 1959) My favorite quote... I think it sums up some very valid points. Knowledge is freedom! It is quite common for most people to stumble into the first plank: "change to formulate available choices" To be perfectly honest, it happens to me all the time... E.g. If one does not know of anything better/different, s/he can always call his/her nation the best place to be and the perfect example of freedom. Traveling of course helps, but then again - to really get an inside peak of a certain society, you need to be very well integrated into that society (takes a bit more time than a quick visit - more like years...) Or is it possible to be free without surrounding society - is reclusion the answer? I doubt that... OR From a more daily type of situation: many people are very stressed out about their lives... How many times they really stop (I mean really stop) and take a long breath and ask: What am I doing and for what? I know I don't quite as often as I should... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #47 July 15, 2003 thanks for finding an excellent quote that pins down what i was trying to say (sometimes it really sucks if you are at a loss of words in a foreign language) Quoteto really get an inside peak of a certain society, you need to be very well integrated into that society (takes a bit more time than a quick visit - more like years...) if anything was so easy as a prejudice! they come in so handy. and the appeal to our lazyness. because its far easier to live with such a prejudice than to try and understand the why's and get involved. i don't think that reclusion is an adequate answer. cause - unless you get stranded on a remote island (which doesn#t happen that often) you have to be priviledged to make a choice to step aside or drop out... and for the motifs of our life: he man thats probably the oldest question ever. where do i come from, waht am i doing here and where do i go from here. not a simple task solving that puzzle....The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyAnt 0 #48 July 15, 2003 No undies! "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #49 July 15, 2003 on guys or gals?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyAnt 0 #50 July 15, 2003 On me. Or the gals. The guys I dont care. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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turtlespeed 226 #35 July 14, 2003 Quote In wider scale I agree. What you said covers a big part of it and I think it is very well defined in US constitution. You are so very right IMO. I cannot help but agree. What was said is a big part of it. Not all there is though. One cannot "fully" describe Freedom, alot like one cannot fully describe Love. Only through arts, such as Poetry and Literature, and painting can anyone even truly to "fully" describe Freedom. Something so fulfilling and beautiful cannot be put in words. QuoteAt the same token though your answer is very work oriented. In your rather short comment you have five words referring to work, namingly: labor, business, prosper, labor law and slave labor. I have never met one person that has eversucceeded that did not have to practice. I have never even headr of anyone that turned "Pro" without training and perseverance. One thing that is sure. Freedom DOES NOT mean that you do not have to work to succeed. Of course freedom does mean that you can choose not to work. (The ability to choose without the fear of persecution) Common sense tells us, though, at the same time you are choosing not to succeed. There are always a few exceptions. But IMHO that is it.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #36 July 15, 2003 Sure we must work. No doubt about it. It is just that sometimes we get fixated by the idea and loose the perspective of real life... me included. There was this locally well known finnish carricatyrist who defined the situation very well long time ago. He stated that roughly 100 years ago we lived in small huts hunting and fishing for subsistence... whereby now we work our arses off during the weeks... so that during the weekends we can go to these litle huts and hunt and fish for subsistence. I think it pretty much rounds it up. Crazy world, crazy me. cheers: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #37 July 15, 2003 Quote"300 yard running head shot" Well now... I thought of letting the matter rest but as you constantly bring it up I once more point out that in the unlikely situation that it has ever happened it is extremely bad manners.... which if you have anything to do with hunting rather than sport shooting.... you should know. I figured out a very long time ago that there are people who can do things better than I can.. some things I can do better than others.... BUT I never use my own personal inadequacies to judge what others can or can not do. People do have inadequecies.. just as countries do. Now remember this is the American West where I live ...... where everything is bigger... Now I have to admit.. that was one of the best shots I have ever made in the field... and even the Coast Guardsman that was with me and who was the recipient of most of the meat from the elk and has hunted all of his life was a bit amazed.. but it was at high altitude in the high mountains of the Eagle Cap Wilderness of Oregon. It was above the treeline... the elevation between my location and the herd of elk was nearly the same .. and they were across a small draw near the rimrock. Another group of hunters had undoubtedly spooked them out of a patch of Sub- alpine fir. I shoot a custom built Mauser sport version bolt action rifle in 7mm Remington Magnum caliber. The action is glass bedded and the24" Douglas Airguage barrel has been turned down to sport weight for ease of carrying in the high mountains... and it is free floating. The loads we use for hunting we reload our selves on National Match grade brass that has only been fired a couple times and only in the chamber of this rifle. Each load is reloaded by hand in the same RCBS dies.. and the powder is measured out to 1/10 of a grain +/_. The bullets are each also weighed and are within +/-.10 of a grain I prefer the Sierra 175 grain boat tail because of superior ballistics at the ranges I typically shoot at. For hunting I use Gamemaster bullets and for target I use the Match grade bullets of the same weight and configuration. The Rifle will consistently shoot sub minute of angle groups at 400 to 500 yards. The rifle is sighted in at 250 yards which with the load I use gives me a very flat trajectory out to 300 yards. Basically anything between me and 300 yards is only within a couple of inches elevation. I go shooting all year long.. and a shot is instinctual as far as breathing control and aim point and where and how I light up my scope. If you didnt get it yet.. I take shooting somewhat seriously. I dont have to kill something when I go into the woods to consider it a successful hunt. Dems the facts bucko... are you feeling a bit threatened???? As far as who we choose to liberate or oppress I guess that is up to our government... the what is right and what is wrong of it will be decided in the history to be written. Dictators around the wsorld are not sleeping as well these days. Its not my call... but then again... when has YOUR country lifted a finger to help ANYONE else but yourselves? I wonder if the Sami people feel liberated or oppressed or conquered by the Finns??? Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #38 July 15, 2003 Your postings in other threads made the impression that you are a reasonable person. what you type in here makes me feel a little bit different and i'm not sure if you are not too self-righteous. but - and i want to make it very clear - i would fight for your right to voice your opinions - no matter if i like them or not. maybe the following explains the difference between europe and the states. we had our load of shit with dictators who told us what we should think. who told us that everybody else who didn't share the leaders opinions & beliefs were to be killed, put to camps or tortured to change their way of thinking. my family lived near a concentration camp in WWII - so they knew what was going on. an uncle of mine went to prison 'cause he was an active member of the widerstand (resistance???) - and keep asking myself over the years if i had the guts to do the same thing. so you see - europe is nit full of sissys (cissys? syssies?) or lame assed cowards who wait for the glorious americans to free us of the tyrants (i dearly hope you get the sarcasm). if you are into the history thing - go for the archives and find out how your governement actually knew about most of the shit that happenend and still had some reason to do business with the nazis (i dont want to put up paralells with the us-government doing more or less the same stuff in the present, as long as a murderous regime is of some use for the powergames of the us). to be even more precise and to calm down a little: i think that your country is the home of some great values, has made some great achievements and has done its best to end the bloody WWII thing. many of your people died for a cause that wasn't teirs but for the good of it. i am very thankfull for this, because right now it enables me to live just the way i do and i don't have to follow my uncles path (no sarcasm - honestly!) on the other hand: what frightnes me (personally) is the attitude of your government towards non-u.s.-people/countries. it's the "we know what is good for you and if you don't think waht we do you are our enemy" attitude that sucks. it's not that bloodsimple nor has is ever been. not for me not for you and not for the rest of the world. i'll try another definition of freedom: it could be an ability. the ability to change the point of view and the see/feel/recognize what somebody else is thinking. and if i see it's good to make a choice and adapt my way of living/thinking/acting/beeing. freedom has - again for me - something to do with respect and a non-judgemental attitude 'cause rarely have the knowledge of a persons background that makes/forms his/her beliefs. (but maybe thats a point to start another thread? - how do you define respect?)The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #39 July 15, 2003 Hi Amazon You just don't seem to get it. Shooting something running at 300 yards is very unethical. If you are the crack shot / the white hunter you claim to be and intentionally had a head shot at that distance, that is borderline criminal, because you should know better than that. and finally If you did shoot into running heard... as far as I am concerned your guns should be confiscated. As far as Finnish participation to international aid, peace keeping or the situation of Same people, it would help, if you would check the facts before flaming away. The ignorance would not be so apparent. Cheers: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #40 July 15, 2003 maybe you should start a new thread on hunting-ethics?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #41 July 15, 2003 LOL, Just did, hope that this one returns into the original topic. Cheers: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #42 July 15, 2003 hope that this one returns into the original topic. *** I hope so too. cause it would be really interesting to get a broader variety of thoughts in hereThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #43 July 15, 2003 I try to keep the self righteousness down to a bare minimum because unlike some on here... I am not too good at it. I know my shortcomings Quoteeurope is nit full of sissys (cissys? syssies?) or lame assed cowards who wait for the glorious americans to free us of the tyrants (i dearly hope you get the sarcasm). ... Hey I like sissies...I think they are cute.. far more interesting than strutting chest puffing guys who are in point of fact hiding thier inadequacies. BUT on the flip side.. the situation in Europe just 10 years ago is appaling...I thought we had got beyond the time for genocide/ethnic cleansing... but there it was.. and most of Europe again stood by.. wringing its hands rather than acting to stop those attrocities. I know this country is supporting despicable people in many places. That is the way of the world but I also think that as time goes on. the support has changed and more benign governments rise to take thier place. We are damned if we do not do anything about it.. or we are damned if we do something about it. Very few people know what really is going on behind the scenes...but I do know for a fact that the stated policy of our government for a long time.. even before 9/11 was to support free elections where ever they might happen. The right of people to choose their own poison of a government should and has for the most part been respected. I think it was a forgone conclusion since the "election" of this president, that Saddam was going down...hard.. It was personal for Bush.. they sent a hit squad to kill his father in Kuwait. Ok we had supported him... we also supported Noriega... both were despots.. both are removed from power. I hope other dictators in the world have taken note. I really would like to see a world.. finally at peace.... where governments served thier people... maybe someday that will be a reality in more of the world. One thing to remember though that many forget..we as Americans.. ARE THE WORLD..... we have come from EVERY country...so maybe...being an old democracy...that works.. most of the time we as a people... with all our faults really do know what others could learn... to have the freedom to choose a tolerable life... perhaps even someday to have a fulfilling life. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #44 July 15, 2003 Dude you still do not get it.. Just because YOU cant make a shot like that dont think I am some kind of criminal for doing a fairly simple dead on kill. Obviously you dont understand hunting other than as a member of a group drive of hapless animals in the boreal forest. Fact When elk are running as a herd anywhere from 6 to 15 individual animals... they are not doing the pell mell flow of a herd of reindeer/caribou, they move out at a slow trot conserving energy but covering a great amount of distance, usually over into the next basin, the cows lead the herd interspersed with the calves and yearlings, any bulls that are with the herd are usually bringing up the rear. Most of the time the bulls form separate herds or are solitaries.... but this was near the end of the rut. This was a very large bull bringing up the rear.. in the relative safety of having the herd pass through an area first. In the high mountains of Oregon.. above the timberline.. long shots at 200 yards are the norm. That is one of the reasons I use a high powered 3000 FPS muzzle velocity custom built rifle and not some sporterized low powered WWI burned out barrel POS with open sights. Sometimes if the vegetation and the terrain allow, you can spot a herd at a great distance... 1 mile or more.... and then blind stalk them to within a hundred yards... maybe. If the herd has an old wary cow you will never get that close. I can see that I touched a RAW nerve there about the Sami People..... since....I do know they are a minority indigenous group that has been shafted over and over. History of Sami People Excerpt Finnish law no longer grants the Sami exclusive right to their traditional livelihoods. Excerpt The Sami Parliament would be the autonomous body of the Sami, but it would still not have decision making power. So far, the Government has not started to draft a Bill on the rights of the Sami to land, water and traditional livelihoods Not to worry though.. and to preempt the vehemence about native americans I know you are just itching to bring up.( My great grandmother by the way was a Seminole... opps there goes that Great White hunter anology right out the window.) I am well aware of the european history as it pertains to native americans. Perhaps you would like to enlighten all of us on the many contributions that the Finns have made to further world peace. I know they have a very small contingent that FINALLY went into Kosovo and Bosnia...hey every little bit helps. Spell it out...since we are for the most part just ignorant simple minded self centered Americans who value our freedom that is not given to even people in your own country to live thier traditional lives if they see fit. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #45 July 15, 2003 first of all - thx for beeing clear at last. aabout the situation in europe over the last years e.g. the kosovo-conflict and the civil war in ex-yugoslavia: thats our neighborhodd. and it was deeply depressing to see how the governments of most european countries acted (even "my" government was just bullshitting). no excuses accepted. it was lameassed, less than halfharted, mostly looking away from genocide. f*#@ing hypocrites! so i go along with you and once again - it takes guts, will and power to make decisions if - and only if - people in a country can't help themselves and get rid of a ridiculous regime. Quote We are damned if we do not do anything about it.. or we are damned if we do something about it. damn right! maybe "we" in the "old world" (what a stupid term indeed) are just scared shitless because of our history and tend to act like "sissies" (thx for the spelling-help) - there were far to many wars for no reason at all in europe. sometimes i wonder if there's anyplace here, were no blood was spillt whilst fighting battles Quote I really would like to see a world.. finally at peace.... where governments served thier people.. I'd like to see the same. but i guess thats like believing in father christmasThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #46 July 15, 2003 “Freedom is first of all the change to formulate available choices. To argue over them – and then the opportunity to choose. This is why freedom cannot exist without an enlarged role of human reason in human affairs.” (C. Wright Mills 1959) My favorite quote... I think it sums up some very valid points. Knowledge is freedom! It is quite common for most people to stumble into the first plank: "change to formulate available choices" To be perfectly honest, it happens to me all the time... E.g. If one does not know of anything better/different, s/he can always call his/her nation the best place to be and the perfect example of freedom. Traveling of course helps, but then again - to really get an inside peak of a certain society, you need to be very well integrated into that society (takes a bit more time than a quick visit - more like years...) Or is it possible to be free without surrounding society - is reclusion the answer? I doubt that... OR From a more daily type of situation: many people are very stressed out about their lives... How many times they really stop (I mean really stop) and take a long breath and ask: What am I doing and for what? I know I don't quite as often as I should... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #47 July 15, 2003 thanks for finding an excellent quote that pins down what i was trying to say (sometimes it really sucks if you are at a loss of words in a foreign language) Quoteto really get an inside peak of a certain society, you need to be very well integrated into that society (takes a bit more time than a quick visit - more like years...) if anything was so easy as a prejudice! they come in so handy. and the appeal to our lazyness. because its far easier to live with such a prejudice than to try and understand the why's and get involved. i don't think that reclusion is an adequate answer. cause - unless you get stranded on a remote island (which doesn#t happen that often) you have to be priviledged to make a choice to step aside or drop out... and for the motifs of our life: he man thats probably the oldest question ever. where do i come from, waht am i doing here and where do i go from here. not a simple task solving that puzzle....The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyAnt 0 #48 July 15, 2003 No undies! "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #49 July 15, 2003 on guys or gals?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyAnt 0 #50 July 15, 2003 On me. Or the gals. The guys I dont care. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
