What is freedom?

[w4p2 0]

In recent "what makes you proud of USA thread" a common answer was freedom. However, it was seldomly defined. SO HOW DO YOU DEFINE FREEDOM?

[freeflir29 0]

I have NO idea. I have been working for the Government most years in one capacity or another since I was 19. While I have done a lot to protect it....I certainly haven't enjoyed a lot of it.

[bobsled92 0]

How about :"Life, Liberty & the >Pursuit< of happiness"
(you can pursue it but, you're not guaranteed it)
FREEDOM: the right to prosper or fail, to start your own business or work for another. Protected labor laws. Inalienable rights (you have human rights even if you are forced to sign off/you can not loss your rights). no slave labor or Totalitarianism.
It doesn't mean no laws and instant joy or anarchy

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Amazon 7]

The freedom to associate with others based on your own values............. to worship as you see fit or not worship...with no state sanctioned religeon... to vote as you so desire with being forced to vote for only the approved leader..... to travel when and to where you desire...to fail or to succeed on your own merits....not based on your position of birth within the society...... and most importantly to avoid people who are racists.. sexists....bigots..and hypocrites.

Amazon

[katiebear21 0]

Amen, sista!

Katie
Get your PMS glass necklace here

[hooked 0]

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The freedom to associate with others based on your own values............. to worship as you see fit or not worship...with no state sanctioned religeon... to vote as you so desire with being forced to vote for only the approved leader..... to travel when and to where you desire...to fail or to succeed on your own merits....not based on your position of birth within the society...... and most importantly to avoid people who are racists.. sexists....bigots..and hypocrites.

Amazon

Exactly!!! Very good definition.

Jan

--------------------------------------
Sometimes we're just being Humans.....But we're always Human Beings.

[andy2 0]

skydiving is freedom

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[mjosparky 4]

Freedom means you can quit your job and go skydiving, it means you can be an asshole and not vote, it means you can love someone special, it means you are free to say this country sucks, and it means you are one of the lucky people who get to live in a place we call America!
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BobB 0]

Freedom isn't an is, it's an isn't. Freedom isn't having to worry about certain things. Freedom isn't having to fear retribution for profferring ideas. Freedom isn't having to fear execution for speech. Freedom isn't persecution for beliefs. Freedom isn't... Freedom isn't...

Freedom is awesome.

Yes, I know it is snowing.
No, we are not putting the top up.

[Gawain 0]

What she said...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[w4p2 0]

In wider scale I agree. What you said covers a big part of it and I think it is very well defined in US constitution.

At the same token though your answer is very work oriented. In your rather short comment you have five words referring to work, namingly: labor, business, prosper, labor law and slave labor.

But how about individual freedom. I think that in US the freedom of ownership is trespassing to the everyman's rights zone and the big brother is so eager in protecting the rights of individual, that he is actually nullifying a lot of them.

[skydyvr 0]

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and most importantly to avoid people who are racists.. sexists....bigots..and hypocrites.

Or, conversely, the freedom to hang out with or be one of them if desired.

. . =(_8^(1)

[SadSue 0]

Well. em... some of my MATES have explained it as being let off the leash.

Hope you don't get Banned!

[bobsled92 0]

Yes,
I happen to work for the EXACT company that George Orwell called "Big Brother".
I am tracted all day within 1 square meter and on call EVERY minute of the year.
Freedom is what we give ourselves or lose when we choose to sell ourselves to the ideals of "Corperate America". It's my fault that I quit on myself & didn't continue to Medical School, no one else's fault= my freedom to fail.
-Grant
p.s.
the Company is also in control of whether or not I can afford to sell my present gear. I will know within 30 minutes after 12 Midnight Aug. 2nd.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[w4p2 0]

So true.

I think that we are faced with the problem that is evident in every mature democracy:

Rather than government serving the people, it is people serving the government. Rather than laws protecting people it is people protecting the law.

So where is this new born democracy with pristine forests and virgin waters. My home country used to be one.... years and years ago.... but is no longer. Our freedom was sacrificed on the altar off European unity... whatever that is supposed to mean.
(actually it means that my tax money is paying for the cleanup of former soviet back yard)

The closest I ever came to freedom was at Tonga years ago. At those days they had one prisoner suffering penalty for murder, and his isolation was ensured by letting him live alone on his own island.

Well... it was too hot in Tonga anyway.

Cheers: JL

ps. With regard to the gear, U know how to catch me.

[juanesky 0]

It is curious that you mention the fact that you don't have freedoms, or feel like you don't have them, based on the common good of EUROPEAN UNION.

And try to make a point about it with trying to portray that US is a democracy in decay. I will tell you this, based on history, the EUROPEANS were born and lived in a exact social status which would be the same until the day of their death. ALthough many things have changed, the opportunity to make it over there, pale in comparison of making it here.

You can be born in US with no money and if you work VERY HARD (usually others are just lucky), usually you will enjoy some success, and be able to achieve your dreams, or fail miserably. Now, there has been people here who have made tons of money, lost it all, and then get it back.......I don't think ever reading about this situation in EUROPE, with the exception of the newly independent former soviet bloc....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[w4p2 0]

F@ck the European Union, only good thing about it is, that it is easy to hate because the french live there ( and this has nothing to do with Iraq).

As for US, it is definitely a democracy is decay, as are the ones in the so called old world.

Making loads of money does not have a monkey shit to do with freedom, maybe U figure it out one day.

As for comparing the money making in US and former soviet union, I fully agree... maybe even the means are/were the same.

In general, I am of the opinion, that modern man does not have any freedom left and so we should not fly flags for being beacons of the free world.

We are either slaves for tyrants or slaves of money and society.

Even the freedom of oceans is no more: JL

[Amazon 7]

SO... I have no idea what your situation is.. but do you not need some form of income to be able to skydive in Finland?

I know in the old Soviet Union the jumping clubs were free.. more or less on some levels... as they were looked upon as a ready resource of paratroopers in case of war.
Some of our military personel get deep discounts in SOME places and with some clubs but that is the exception.

Otherwise this is a fairly expensive sport unless you can get sponsorship. The alternative.... is find a way of somehow MIRACAL-LING your ass up to full altitude... ain't happenin. ( I love R. Lee Ermey)

You sound like some of the anarchists railing against the MAN....I would bet you would love a world full of anarchists to rival some of the wonderful post apocolyptic epics such as Mad Max or Thunderdome.. or Waterworld.

In that world of true freedom my accurized 7MM Remington Magnum with the 6-24x power 40mm scope might be very usefull. Reach out and touch an anarchist at 700 yards before he can get to me.



Amazon

[w4p2 0]

I work my ass off, but do not make a number of it, nor about the money I might/might not be making.
By having to work my ass off I have compromised my freedom.... by freedom of choice.... but compromised all the same.

Anarchist.... now that would be interesting to define. I guess I am to certain point... not willing knowingly to hurt anyone... but still considering that the modern human society is the cancer of the earth. Anybody willing to carry it's flag under the freedom banner is either stupid, ignorant or most likely both.

As for your pea shooter self constrain is strongly recommended. Buy a real gun before aiming for anybody or you might get hurt.

cheers: JL

[Amazon 7]

Its all in how you use it darlin. Just call me MAGNUM-Bitch. I could always use my 300 Win Mag but that is overkill for almost anything I would want to shoot at anyway as is the 7mm Rem Mag considering its accurate out to 800 yards with the loads we load ourselves.... at least when bench rested..... but no worries I constrain myself to Elk..... last one was on the run... at 300 yards.... and I shot him in the head... I hate messing up good meat.... and yes I have the cape that was tanned with the bullet hole

My only problem with anarchists is that when push comes to shove they live within a society that has controls.... if those controls are removed then most are hypocrites.. .... they do not want to suffer the consequences of human nature. I for one do not trust most humans nature under those circumstances. Without some form of authority, you get situations like what we saw in Iraq just recently. TAKE whatever you can for yourself.... similar to the LA Riots. I was there to witness that one in person. It crossed all racial and ethnic boundries...because people believed they cold get away with it. Freedom extends as far as my belief that in your freedom you should do no harm to anyone else. I would like to think I am an idealist sometimes but I have seen some of the worst things people can do to one another, so my idealism is tempered with realism.

[NightJumper 0]

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Just call me MAGNUM-Bitch

Considering your post above, I'll call you what ever you want to be called.

[w4p2 0]

Well MAGNUM-bitch, now hear a word of experience and wisdom:

YOU SHOULD NEVER AIM A ELK ON HEAD
FAR LESS MENTION HITTING ONE SO. YOU
MIGHT JUST MAIM THE POOR BEAST. SHAME
SHAME SHAME. WHAT YOU JUST BOASTED
ABOUT WOULD BE ENOUGH TO GET YOUR ASS
KICKED OUT OF ANY NORTHERN HUNTING
PARTY.

Freedom is not shooting the elks in head. Shooting elks in head might seriously restrict your hunting rights and be dangerous to your butt.

cheers: JL

P.s. Running moose/elk should not be shot at distances longer than 120 yards. having a head hit at the run is a result of too much advance... not a result of good aim.

300 yards... yea... and then you woke up and let the cat take a piss.

[bigben 0]

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In recent "what makes you proud of USA thread" a common answer was freedom. However, it was seldomly defined. SO HOW DO YOU DEFINE FREEDOM?

Freedom is a state of mind. If you believe your free, you are. Of course, this means it's subjective.

-Ben

[Amazon 7]

Tsk Tsk.. jealousy is such a horrible thing, and an Elk is not an ELG..... different critter. In this country the animal you are thinking of would be called a moose, which are fairly rare in this state with limited tags available. AS far as being kicked out of your hunting club... I seem to remember your ranting from one of your previous thread about how much of a pain in da butt we Americans have in getting a salmon tag. I not only get them easily.. I fill them yearly...but at least its not predicated in this country on our position in society based on birth to enter one of those very selective European hunting clubs.


You wrote in the original thread:

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You have plenty of reasons to be proud of your country and heritage.... but freedom.... I do not think so.

Freedom is the walk in woods without NO TRESPASSING signs.

Freedom is a salmon on your line with out salmonsticker.

Freedom is a goose on your rifle sight without NPS chasing your ass.

Freedom is your camp where ever you want to put it up as long as it does not cause harm to the property.

Freedom is naked kids running on beaches or lawn without social service arresting you for trumped up charges made by your neighbors.

Freedom is a walk in late night town without having to pack a piece.

Freedom is equal changes for education and medical care irrigardless of your wealth or race.

Freedom is the right to speak your mind, even if politically not correct.

Freedom is many things, but unfortunately I never found it in USA.

I can refute every one of those points you see as a negative thing you found here. It really is too bad you found this country so repressive to the human spirt... I never have.

Being able to hit anything you aim at is a skill developed over a long time with a LOT of practice.....I have been shooting since I was very very young, 40 plus years in a family that is very outdoors oriented. In years past our family hunted for subsistence. That is part of our heritage both males and females in the family hunt and fish. Beyond that as in all things very few people are created equal in their skill levels in life. What is normal for one person... is far beyond the reach for others.

Freedom in this case is the application of skill.. no matter what your level. If you have the shot and you can make it.. and you know you can make it....take the shot.. dont utilize transferrence to mask a lack of skill.


Amazon

[w4p2 0]

Dear Amazon, lets take it point by point.

1) In my native country we do not hunt in clubs, nor do we hunt for "sport" as done in some parts of Europe. Most often our hunting is done in small groups of people, family members or othervise closely associated and it is always done for the meat and still very often for subsistence. In my own house
the game and fish covers more than 70% my family's yearly consumption of meets. Not because of necessity, but because of will.

Based to above I have a very high respect on nature and wild life, and extreame low tolerance on "sport" hunting, not to even mention catch an release fishing.

As for your 300 yard shot, so be it, was not at my nick of neigbouhood. Definitely something we do not do, nor do we wish anybody else will.

2) Freedom... you found my old post and I am 100% behind it. On that level I found USA depressing, no ifs or buts about it. On the other hand when referring to outdoor activities, most of Europe is worse than US, and even Finland and Norway are going down the gutters. Sign of the times I guess.

So do not feel sorry, You are not alone, or rather, feel sorry for all of us.

3) As of my opinion of US in general, it is very positive, Its just that occasionally you guys are so overbearing that it's time to stop and think. You have a great country and it's achievements are undisputable.... unfortunately there is always a cost to pay.

Finally:

In my line of work I have spent extensive times with various natives round the world and they have been the most rewarding times of my work. There I have seen real freedom, but the fact that I have seen it, means that the clock is ticking also for these free spirits.

Freedom? No More.

Kindly: JL