Good thing we invaded Iraq

[juanesky 0]

Bill,

I agree with you, believe it or not, in regards of finding better solutions. But what I find very interesting is that the world is not leaving much room for tolerance nor respect from either side.

Regardless of who has the blame or who is at fault, I really believe that the muslim situation is completely out of control. In some portions it is US fault, but it is also every single nation that has helped over there as well as the muslims themselves.

I never hear them complaining of the genocide practiced among themselves, Lebanon, Iraq where towns were just swiped, bulldozed and built over, then it goes to point fingers that it is the jew's fault no matter what, then the concerned that they seem to be unable to separate church and state, making any other religion practically illegal. Yes I see that they are intolerant, and most US is being intolerant to the intolerant. Since we do not know how to distinguish from good arab-persian from bad one, how come they don't take it upon themselves and purge themselves?

Either way we are doomed for worst times. I would prefer to be fighting than having be caught by surprise.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[billvon 3,116]

>oh yea lets wait till our Euro Friends decide that we should step up
> measures against Saddam, and terrorist states . . .

You do realize that european (and asian) countries have captured far more of Al Qaeda's leadership than we have, right? Looks like they've stepped up more than we have.

And BTW - did we get Saddam yet? Or Bin Laden? Is Al Qaeda out of business yet? Have terrorist attacks against Americans stopped? No? Hmm. We may not be so much better than those lazy europeans.

[turtlespeed 226]

Im getting into this thread late so...Anyway...
Bill, I have only three questions for you concerning
this post.
1) Did you know or even know of anyone killed in the trade center bombings.

2) If it was your family would you care then?

3) Who do you think was responsible, Koreans?

One thing at a time.


[Joke mode]
How do you scare a Korean National?

Pull every american within 1000 miles of Korea back home.

And laugh as they get reallly nervous
[/Joke mode]

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Even by the highest casualty estimates, fewer people were killed in the two gulf wars than were killed by saddam's regime in the time between them.

Sometimes diplomacy/bickering/stalling costs more lives.

So do you want to wait until Kimmy boy in N Korea has 50 nukes and all diplomatic avenues are exhausted... or do you want to jump the gun and attack him while he has 3?

[billvon 3,116]

>Since we do not know how to distinguish from good arab-persian
> from bad one, how come they don't take it upon themselves and
> purge themselves?

Many of them are trying. Many of them hate the US because we keep killing Arabs. The more we kill the more Arabs will hate us, and the more we will undermine the Arab states who _are_ against terrorism in all its forms. For that reason we should be careful about using full scale war as a weapon against terrorism - that's like using a cannon to stop a pack of angry pitbulls trying to tear you apart.

[billvon 3,116]

>1) Did you know or even know of anyone killed in the trade center
> bombings.

Nope; but I came within 20 minutes of being one of those people, so I'm sorta sensitive about it.

>2) If it was your family would you care then?

I care a _lot_ about the people who killed 3000 americans. And I am amazed that so few other people do.

>3) Who do you think was responsible, Koreans?

Bin Laden and his organization. Notice that he's been far from a priority with the US in the past year or so. That's too bad; you'd think we would stop at nothing to get him.

Note that the Iraqis did not pull off 9/11.

[mikkey 0]

Don't want to create huge posts by responding in detail. But read you own post again: So you have the solution? Which solution? You are sitting in Iraq - no trace of Saddam no trace of WMD no trace of Osama and friends. The country is in chaos - US soldiers are getting killed every day - some people are already talking about a new Vietnam...

So the Europeans were just difficult and bickering? The Iraq war has solved the issue of international terror? Wake up! Saddam was a problem for the region but he was not involved with Osama - that is the biggest mistake - the US has actually taken their eye of the main game - terror. You should have invaded some other countries if that was the real issue...

Just for the record - I was advocating doing something about Iraq, but a) only with a broad coalition b) a decent plan for post-war Iraq c) justifying it with the real reasons - not mixing it with the fight against Osama and friends...

Again, if you guys treat your real friends like shit just because they disagree, you will regret it in the long run....

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[billvon 3,116]

>So do you want to wait until Kimmy boy in N Korea has 50 nukes and
> all diplomatic avenues are exhausted... or do you want to jump the
> gun and attack him while he has 3?

How about not waiting - getting there tomorrow with the UN and our best negotiators and giving him the choice between the proverbial stick or the carrot. Then you don't have to kill ten thousand people OR wait until he has 50 nukes. It's not as much fun as war, but it ends up costing fewer lives in the long run.

[turtlespeed 226]

There is no actual proof of this, of course, but the two of them, (saddam and bin laden) were at the very least in contact with each other before and directly after the bombing.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[juanesky 0]

Quote

Even by the highest casualty estimates, fewer people were killed in the two gulf wars than were killed by saddam's regime in the time between them.

Sometimes diplomacy/bickering/stalling costs more lives.

So do you want to wait until Kimmy boy in N Korea has 50 nukes and all diplomatic avenues are exhausted... or do you want to jump the gun and attack him while he has 3?

Blue....man,

Based on your posting, I take it that you have served the community, as a policeman, yet you have been denounced as barbaric just because you had to shoot on self defense like that poor little kiddo that ran away on a high speed chase, and decided that after getting them winded up, he had the brilliant idea to get his cellpone in a very agreesive demeanor and make gestures with it in the middle of the night, to the police officers....

Poor kid it is not his fault. I bet my rig in this forum, if someone here comes up and tells me that if they decided to aboard a plane to lets say LA-NY, and sits next to a sweaty towel head that looks nervous and they won't be bothered at all.

Sure, I know not all of them are like that, but where can I see the difference? Let him press a button and ask questions later?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

You do realize that european (and asian) countries have captured far more of Al Qaeda's leadership than we have, right?

That's obvious, there is more of them in those countries. If we let the arab countries handle it torture and other methods that we are not allowed to use can be used to produce results.

Quote

Have terrorist attacks against Americans stopped? No? Hmm. We may not be so much better than those lazy europeans.

Hmmm Bill, most of the Terrorist attacks against America HAVE stopped. A few here and there in Iraq... thats a war zone. The attacks that have happened have been mostly against the nationals of other countries. And, the only terrorists in the news on US soil are the ones going to jail/detention. No more hijacked planes? No more blown up buildings?

Apparently this restrictive anti-freedom stuff is working. So lets all kill the Constitution now.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

How about not waiting - getting there tomorrow with the UN and our best negotiators and giving him the choice between the proverbial stick or the carrot.

Umm that is what Bush has been trying to do! (I am not defending the moron bush, but he actually is trying) Bush wants the UN, The other nations to take care of this with our help. But do you see the Security Council enacting sanctions for the restarting the reactors. No, no one would go along with us. China is FINALLY going to start working on this. Where is France, Germany? Are they driving the Europe/the UN to a solution? nope. Again we are left holding the bag.

Not to say I don't love your Idea, it would be great, but unfortunately reality rules. and more people are going to die of starvation and war ...again because of diplomacy..or lack thereof. Fewer lives would have been lost if we would have attacked their facilities 2 years ago than are going to be lost now.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

There is no actual proof of this, of course, but the two of them, (saddam and bin laden) were at the very least in contact with each other before and directly after the bombing.

This is what pisses me off... no understanding of the detail. Who says they were in contact? Same person who said they were buying stuff in Africa??

Osama and Saddam HATED each other. Saddam is a secular muslim and ran a secular non-religious dictatorship. Osama is a fundamentalistic fanatical muslim.
Again making my point - the Americans have stopped listening to their friends are looking at the world in black and white. This is NOT a Hollywood movie. The US learned a big lesson in Vietnam - I just do not hope they are going to repeat the mistakes of the past...

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Oh Mikkey,

The solution is obvious, you put up crap, and we go after those renegade leaders, and squash them.

The bickering has resulted from the not listening to their constant pleas in which they clearly intended to disregard the US in the UN. Just as a reminder look at what happened in the Human Rights chamber....Hhhmmmm Libya, syria? and US out? SO yes I guess US is very famous of treating the POW they retain, when they give them the food they eat, let them pray, etc, etc. Oh sure, just ask the germans and Japs that were over here when WWII happened and get them together with those of the allies and exchange stories.

Sure, Asia and Europe is doing a great job arresting them, yet why are they not here? because we are watching, and squashing them really bad. They still will resist and this will probably end the world as we know it. Yes, the US gave Taliban warnings, they declared them to hand over the Al Qaida, or else we will be very PISSED of and go after your ass, instead of like they did, we really are pissed off at you, keep helping me, and then I'll go and bomb your buildings.

Wow, I change my mind, I'll join the EU.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

The US learned a big lesson in Vietnam - I just do not hope they are going to repeat the mistakes of the past...

Yes we did. We did not fully commit the military deployment and throw more than enough at them to decisively win the war/battle.

That mistake was already repeated in Somalia, so it probably will not be repeated for another generation.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Umm that is what Bush has been trying to do! (I am not defending the moron bush, but he actually is trying) Bush wants the UN, The other nations to take care of this with our help. But do you see the Security Council enacting sanctions for the restarting the reactors. No, no one would go along with us. China is FINALLY going to start working on this. Where is France, Germany? Are they driving the Europe/the UN to a solution? nope. Again we are left holding the bag.

First of all Bush and his administration (except for Powell) do not want to use the UN. They do not like and they do not accept that things are more "grey" and complicated then it looks on the surface.
Bush is in "moral" terms a fundamentalist - he believes everything can be categorised into "bad" and "good" - sorry things are not that easy. But this is why we have these issues. International relations are extremely complicated and tedious. The Bush administration does not have any patience and is on a "power trip". I think the wake up call is near. They are going to have so much trouble in Iraq that they might just return to more old fashioned diplomacy in the future....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[billvon 3,116]

>Hmmm Bill, most of the Terrorist attacks against America HAVE
>stopped.

We've had a year and a half without any. If you don't count the anthrax attack, that is. And you don't count Riyadh, Morocco or Kenya, which were directed towards Americans there. That's pretty par for the course.

On the other hand:

ABC News, May 20— The FBI warned that al Qaeda could launch new attacks in the United States or against U.S. interests overseas, and ABCNEWS has learned that Osama bin Laden's terror network is regenerating and has been training operatives in the Republic of Georgia.

MSNBC - OFFICIALS SAID the FBI issued an alert last week to state and local law enforcement agencies across the country that Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network, which was blamed for two recent deadly suicide bomb attacks in Saudi Arabia and Morocco, could mount new attacks in the United States.

CNN: WASHINGTON -- Citing credible threats that al Qaeda might be planning attacks on American targets, the U.S. government raised the national color-coded threat level Friday to orange, indicating a "high" risk of a terrorist attack.


Even the arch-conservative head of Fox News believes:

Murdoch says war could increase terrorism
AP April 3 2003 Beverly Hills, California: A prolonged war with Iraq could bring terrorism to the US and Britain, as well as greater instability to the Middle East, according to media mogul Rupert Murdoch.

>And, the only terrorists in the news on US soil are the ones going to
>jail/detention. No more hijacked planes? No more blown up buildings?

In 220 years of the US's existence, how many terrorists have flown planes into buildings? I can think of two - 9/11 and a copycat shortly afterwards, which we didn't stop either. (Fortunately it was a Cessna.)

[juanesky 0]

just some math here....Iraq - 24 mill.

US troops and allies: close to 300K.

Killed in battle, after war, close to 300.


I guess I do not know the numbers but last time I saw something it was about 6000 casualties accounted for Iraq.

So I don't think we are seeing another vietnam.. How long did it take to throw this guy out?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

First of all Bush and his administration (except for Powell) do not want to use the UN...

I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where the US was trying to get the IAEA to turn the Korea Matter over to the security council as is REQUIRED by the resolution that brought the IAEA there in the first place. Hmmm If we backed it, then who was throwing the wrench in the works of the UN?

Quote

They do not like and they do not accept that things are more "grey"...//...he believes everything can be categorised into "bad" and "good"

And like I said before... while everyone sits around and plays with the complicated things and takes their time... More nukes are going to be built, and more lives are going to be lost because the simple answer was not used.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

I guess I do not know the numbers but last time I saw something it was about 6000 casualties accounted for Iraq.

Yup, now look up the number of shiites and political opponents killed between the wars.

That is why giving into international pressure, attempting diplomacy and not doing the dirty job immediately, and thoroughly is sometimes the wrong answer.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

The solution is obvious, you put up crap, and we go after those renegade leaders, and squash them.

Please explain? You do not make sense . BTW in regard to Afghanistan everybody was initially on board and supported it, but the job has not been finished because Iraq suddenly became the focus..

Quote

Just as a reminder look at what happened in the Human Rights chamber....Hhhmmmm Libya, syria? and US out? SO yes I guess US is very famous of treating the POW they retain, when they give them the food they eat, let them pray, etc, etc. Oh sure, just ask the germans and Japs that were over here when WWII happened and get them together with those of the allies and exchange stories.

Hmmm, really did not want to talk about the human rights issue (and honestly you are "mixing" a lot of different issues). But I think it is a concern when the US does treat people worse then its own citizen and not in accordance with their own Constitution (of which they are rightly proud of) or the Geneva convention... So it is all right to do this because a) you treat people better then the Nazis and the Japs did? b) because these people are alleged to be terrorists (and probably are)? So your legal principals laid down in your great Constitution does not apply for foreigners? Hmm, what are we defending here again? c) The US does not reconize the international war crimes court (and is AFIK the only country to do so) but feels free to set up a tribunal for those guys held in detention that neither complies with American legal principles nor with international legal principals (in regard to proper legal process and rights of the accused - heck most of these guys have not even been charged after 18 month).

Quote

Sure, Asia and Europe is doing a great job arresting them, yet why are they not here? because we are watching, and squashing them really bad. They still will resist and this will probably end the world as we know it.Yes, the US gave Taliban warnings, they declared them to hand over the Al Qaida, or else we will be very PISSED of and go after your ass, instead of like they did, we really are pissed off at you, keep helping me, and then I'll go and bomb your buildings.

?? How do you know? And by the way where is Osama? Again no one was against the action in Afghanistan - everybody supported it and a BROAD coalition was created and a LOT of different countries did send troops. What people are questioning is the strategy and action chosen in regard to Iraq and concerns how the US will handle North Korea. As well as concerns in regard to how the US disregards principles we are assumed to be fighting for (proper legal process).

It is not your enemies who are concerned, it is your friends.... think about that. And don't give in to the Fox News Euro bashing. You guys are smarter then that.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Quote

The US learned a big lesson in Vietnam - I just do not hope they are going to repeat the mistakes of the past...

Yes we did. We did not fully commit the military deployment and throw more than enough at them to decisively win the war/battle.

That mistake was already repeated in Somalia, so it probably will not be repeated for another generation.

Man that is not the lesson, and BTW you were throwing at some stage everything at this. The lesson was that the US went in there without understanding all the issues, without a plan for what to do with the country (a little like Iraq) and without local and regional support. When you start using force you better know exactly what you are doing..

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[stylinmike1 0]

"War is the continuation of politics by other means"

Karl von Clausewicz - 18th century philosopher/warrior, or was it warrior/philosopher?


IMHO it seems that throughout history any country or society or tyrant that is increasing in power relative to their neighbors will conclude that war is an increasingly appropriate option. China, Spain, Britain, Prussia, Lawrence of Arabia, the US and even the biggest cavemen in the hole all did this at one time or another, until someone bigger comes along to provide a different type of tension or the oppressed mount against a common enemy.

It's not necessarily right, it's just - unfortuately - human.

that's my $0.02 worth - how 'bout some change?

stylinmike

(>O]-<

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

Man that is not the lesson, and BTW you were throwing at some stage everything at this. The lesson was that the US went in there without understanding all the issues, without a plan for what to do with the country (a little like Iraq) and without local and regional support. When you start using force you better know exactly what you are doing..

Sorry I was trying to keep it short. I apologize. But I think we are talking about the same thing. By everything, I mean ALL Resources, not just hardware and money. I completely agree with your above statement.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where the US was trying to get the IAEA to turn the Korea Matter over to the security council as is REQUIRED by the resolution that brought the IAEA there in the first place. Hmmm If we backed it, then who was throwing the wrench in the works of the UN?

Issue is that they are using the UN selectively.

Quote

while everyone sits around and plays with the complicated things and takes their time... More nukes are going to be built, and more lives are going to be lost because the simple answer was not used.

Oh, so we should just nuke the place and kile a few million? or you are going to invade it (they have one of the largest armies in the world)? Or you are going to provoke NK to nuke your tropps and the locals in SK? What is the simple answer here? Enlighten us please?

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.